Let's put an End to This False Doctrine

[Sojourning]

Originally Posted by Aganator

IF this were true, then why do you claim we can lose salvation? If salvation does not come until the end, then that would mean that we cannot lose it. Case closed; you're whole argument has been in vain. But does salvation really come only at the end? No. You took those verses out of context.

However, Paul is not speaking of salvation that has yet to be attained, watchman. The Bible says that whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Once I call on His name, I have eternal life. Jesus even said that I, as His sheep, am given eternal life.

Salvation in that sense is a spiritual salvation. Our PHYSICAL salvation from the presence of sin and evil (physical removal from this sinful world) will not come until the end. But our salvation can be had right NOW.

Luke 19:9
And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

2 Corinthians 6:2
(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

Salvation comes NOW when we call on the name of the Lord. How do you explain these verses if salvation does not come until the end as you mistakenly believe (by using verses out of context, I might add)?

Jesus said to Zacchaeus This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

So why did salvation come to his house that day? Because Zacchaeus said unto Jesus; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore fourfold.

So Zacchaeus repented from his wickedness, and he produced fruits worthy of repentance. The law required one to restore that which he took violently away, or the thing which he hath deceitfully gotten. And all that about which he hath sworn falsely; he shall even restore it in the principal, and shall add the fifth part more thereto,

What the scripture teaches is, Eze 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

So this would apply to Zacchaeus, he turned from his sins and did that which is lawful and right.

Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: [and] not that he should return from his ways, and live?

But it also says, Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

So if one turns from righteousness, then all his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned. When a righteous [man] turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Eze 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD.

[Sojourning]

Originally Posted by Aganator

JWayne, the KJV Bible says in Romans 8:24 that we are saved by hope. The only problem with Sojourning's usage of this passage is that it is talking of our PHYSICAL redemption (the redemption of the body).

Yes, it is speaking of the resurrection, the redemption of the purchased possession. It has not happened yet.

So Paul refers to himself as Tts 1:1 a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; in hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before the ages of time,

Originally Posted by Aganator

Paul is saying that all of creation groans and travails in pain while we wait for the redemption of the body. So the "salvation" that Paul is speaking of here is not the salvation of our souls from Hell, but rather the salvation of our bodies from this corrupt and sinful world.

Our hope is the same hope that was in Jesus. Act 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him (Jesus), I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (Greek hades; Hebrew sheol), neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Act 2:28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

So David being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; David seeing this long before it actually happened, spake in the spirit of the resurrection of Christ, that Jesus' soul was not left in hell/hades/sheol, neither did Jesus' flesh see corruption.

Originally Posted by Aganator

This is the hope that we can take comfort in, that we will be saved from this pain and misery. Paul makes this very clear when he says, "Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God."

The salvation of our souls is only by grace through faith. But the great hope that we have because of our salvation, is that our bodies will also be saved from this corruption brought on by sin.

Read my posts above. What is faith? It is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things unseen.

Hbr 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

1Pe 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Originally Posted by Aganator

Two different types of salvation here, and the confusion is caused by poor hermeneutics.

There are two salvations?

[Russell]

Originally Posted by watchman

We are saved from self and sin, when we are born again IF we have the faith to receive it. We are not granted eternal life until this life is over, IF we have kept the faith until the end. That is what scripture teaches, and that is what I will continue to believe, regardless of how many itching ear, flesh pleasing teachers try to persuade me from God's word.

Once again if we don't have the scriptural definitions nothing makes sense.
"Saved" is the act of God where He delivers us from every evil work. That is a very open ended definition in scripture, but all encompassing about our deliverance. The rich young ruler was looking for deliverance in this life. When ever anyone asked Jesus about "eternal life" (Abundance of Unending life) they were speaking of deliverance from sickness and turmoil of life. The answer according to Jesus was to obey the ten commandments for deliverance here on earth, which is working out our Salvation.
It is Jesus who adds the spiritual component to being "Saved" in the life to come by following Him. The Kingdom of God is about being "Saved" in this life, not in the life to come.
Until Christians understand that Salvation is in two parts, Physical and Spiritual, the message of Jesus does not make any sense, but is wholly "Pie in the Sky". The message also needs to be manipulated to change its original meaning, such as the Rich Young Ruler story and the Prodigal Son. No one here can use these stories in their version of the Gospel without CHANGING them, because it will not fit their definitions.
(Prove me wrong. I'll start another thread for that one)
Lies or Truth "the Prodigal Son"
When we commit to God (Repent/Born Again) we can have deliverance here on earth. If we hold fast to the end, as Jesus The Messiah of God said, then we have Spiritual Deliverance from eternal destruction as He also indicated.
When I began to reread the scripture as it was written, this was the message Jesus preached. I was astounded I had not seen it it all my years of ministry and study. The reason was because I was using man's definitions and not God's.
The message and Gospel of the church is far removed from this message, because of the itchy ear people. It is easier to believe the lie of satan in the garden than the Gospel of Jesus Christ. ( I never saw that statement of satan "You will not die" as easy believe-ism, applying to osas.Thanks Watchmen,)

[JWayne]

It's amazing when you pick the right scripture for the right subject how the truth comes out...

Ephesians 2:8-9 (King James Version)


8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.


One can hope all they want, but if the do not have faith (total belief) that God will do as He says then you still have nothing.

[Russell]

Originally Posted by Sojourning

Just about any Bible you want to read. I don't know of any variants concerning this verse.

KJV 1611 Romanes VIII:24 For wee are saued by hope: but hope that is seene is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

KJV - Rom 8:24 - For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

NKJV - Rom 8:24 - For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?

NLT - Rom 8:24 - Now that we are saved, we eagerly look forward to this freedom. For if you already have something, you don't need to hope for it.

NIV - Rom 8:24 - For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has?

ESV - Rom 8:24 - For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?

NASB - Rom 8:24 - For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he {already} sees?

RSV - Rom 8:24 - For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?

ASV - Rom 8:24 - For in hope were we saved: but hope that is seen is not hope: for who hopeth for that which he seeth?

YNG - Rom 8:24 - for in hope we were saved, and hope beheld is not hope; for what any one doth behold, why also doth he hope for [it]?

DBY - Rom 8:24 - For we have been saved in hope; but hope seen is not hope; for what any one sees, why does he also hope?

WEB - Rom 8:24 - For we are saved by hope: But hope that is seen, is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

HNV - Rom 8:24 - For we were saved in hope, but hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for that which he sees?

Originally Posted by Wayne

It's amazing when you pick the right scripture for the right subject how the truth comes out...

Yes! The verse makes it quite clear. Were Saved by Hope! Hope is the first step in Faith.

[JWayne]

We are saved by God's grace through faith, not by works....how much plainer can that be? And if anyone says different, then they are boasting. We do not work for our salvation.


Ephesians 2:8-9 (King James Version)


8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[Yahweh Will Calculate]

Originally Posted by JWayne

We are saved by God's grace through faith, not by works....how much plainer can that be? And if anyone says different, then they are boasting. We do not work for our salvation.


Ephesians 2:8-9 (King James Version)


8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Amen, and I don't know how anyone after reading these verses alone, could ever believe that they are saved by anything other than the unmerited favor of God.

And even the tenth verse says that the very works that we do thereafter are that which God performs within us as we walk with Him in faith.

10 For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Thank you Yahweh Will Calculate

[Russell]

Originally Posted by Yahweh Will Calculate

Amen, and I don't know how anyone after reading these verses alone, could ever believe that they are saved by anything other than the unmerited favor of God.

And even the tenth verse says that the very works that we do thereafter are that which God performs within us as we walk with Him in faith.

10 For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Thank you Yahweh Will Calculate

The problem is that a fictitious straw man of being saved by works is being fought against. There is nobody here who is saying we are saved by works. The straw man is a misdirection. The straw man is being constructed to take away from the meaning of the scripture and misdirect people away from its true meaning. The true meaning of being Saved is that Salvation is a part of this physical life as well as the spiritual life to come.
(Phil 2:12-3 [KJV])
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.
(Ps 18:20 [KJV])
The LORD rewarded me according to my righteousness; according to the cleanness of my hands hath he recompensed me.
(Matt 19:16-19 [WMTH 2005])
Teacher, said one man, coming up to Him, what that is good shall I do in order to win the Life of the Ages? Why do you ask me, He replied, about what is good? ....... But if you desire to enter into Life, keep the Commandments. Which Commandments? he asked. Jesus answered, `Thou shalt not kill;' `Thou shalt not commit adultery;' `Thou shalt not steal;' `Thou shalt not lie in giving evidence;' `Honour thy father and thy mother'; and `Thou shalt love thy fellow man as much as thyself.'
(Matt 7:26 [WMTH 2005])
And every one who hears these my teachings and does not act upon them will be found to resemble a fool who builds his house upon sand.
Walking in Salvation is what is being struck at.
Jesus said, the rich young ruler would have life if he continued in following the law. If we don't understand what Salvation is we are quick to attack Jesus and what He said.

[Sojourning]

Originally Posted by JWayne

It's amazing when you pick the right scripture for the right subject how the truth comes out...

Ephesians 2:8-9 (King James Version)


8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.


One can hope all they want, but if the do not have faith (total belief) that God will do as He says then you still have nothing.

Act 26:6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers??

Abraham against hope believed in hope, believed (pisteuō), or he had faith in hope.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: And through Jesus Christ we also have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Rom 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that the trying of your faith worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

[Sojourning]

Originally Posted by JWayne

It's amazing when you pick the right scripture for the right subject how the truth comes out...

Ephesians 2:8-9 (King James Version)


8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Now I'm sure you will not agree with me, but it helps to understand who Paul is wrting to, and also from where Paul himself is coming from.

He is a Jew, he has received Christ, and Christ has sent him. Paul has been given the office of apostle to the Gentiles (the uncircumcised). God has given him grace to dispense among the Gentiles.

Eph 3:1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles--if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you.

So God had given Paul grace for the Gentiles, and Paul had the responsibility of administrating that grace among the Gentiles.

God had given the Gentiles grace in that they were only required to obey the necessary things, and that pertaining to food. But although it was laid upon them no greater burden than these necessary things; yet Paul's prayer for them was that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto them the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

And James said, we'll write unto the new Gentile believers, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.

Only those necessary things at that time, but he went on to say, For Moses, from generations of old, has in every city those who preach him, being read in the Synagogues every Sabbath.

So no matter where the Gentiles were, there was a Synagogue nearby where they could go and learn, or receive instructions from the scriptures.

So when we read Eph 2: 8 in context, then we see that Paul is here speaking to Gentiles.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye (Gentiles) saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Now in verse 10 he is speaking of the Jews again, Eph 2:10 For we (Jews) are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

So the good works had been ordained before hand. God had long before entrusted the Jews with his holy oracles, he had prepared them for the coming of faith, and as Paul says in Romans 3, the Jews had great advantage over the Gentiles, because God had prepared them in advance, they were his workmanship, they were the ones who first believed in Christ, they were the first to receive the adoption which had pertained to them. They were the first to become new creations in Christ.

And now back to the Gentiles, Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

So what we find in Acts 21 is that there were many thousands of Jews which believed; and they were all zealous of the law: Even Paul walked orderly, and kept the law.

But as touching the Gentiles which believed, they had written [and] concluded that the Gentiles observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from [things] offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

So it was by grace that the Gentiles were saved, the Jews walked orderly, even being zealous of the law. But it was expected of the Gentiles to learn God's ways, and eventually come into the same knowledge of God, and of what God expected of his people, just as the Jews had this knowledge.