The Rapture or The Catching Up of The Church

[In Christ Alone]

Nolidad, you are arguing against covenant theology, which I also reject. Though it makes some valid points in a few areas, it replaces Israel with the Church, which is unscriptural. My view is much closer to the progressive dispensational view. You can read more of it here:

Progressive Dispensationalism: Introduction
Progressive Dispensationalism 101
Progressive Dispensationalism 102

Fruchtenbaum is a very good author, however in my opinion he makes a few fundamental errors that traditional dispensationalism makes. This became quite evident to me after my years at Master's College & Seminary.

[nolidad]

Originally Posted by In Christ Alone

Nolidad, you are arguing against covenant theology, which I also reject. Though it makes some valid points in a few areas, it replaces Israel with the Church, which is unscriptural. My view is much closer to the progressive dispensational view. You can read more of it here:

Progressive Dispensationalism: Introduction
Progressive Dispensationalism 101
Progressive Dispensationalism 102

Fruchtenbaum is a very good author, however in my opinion he makes a few fundamental errors that traditional dispensationalism makes. This became quite evident to me after my years at Master's College & Seminary.

Well see we are going to argue to death anndget no where. I have been a student of eschatology for 30 years. I have studied nearly all views of eschatology (and progressive dispensationalism is just covenant light for its heavy reliance on allegory). I am not an expert but Ihave become convinced that teh literal historical grammatical dispensational view is the most correct. It is not without its problems and has suffered more in teh hands of its proponents than its antagonists but it flows from allowing Scripture to interpret scripture (in my opinion).

I have taught eschatology onteh college level as well as a church study.

I am conivinced here we are going to have to agree to disagree and not be disagreeable.

Why I am convinced you believe you are correct as I believe I am. I see th eallegory you use (like the four horsemen are four eras):

For many years we have stated the conventional view of the Christian church regarding the four horsemen is inaccurate. It is widely taught that the first horse, the White Horse of Revelation 6:2, is the Antichrist. This is inaccurate, for it is now clear these four horsemen are kingdoms and eras - and the first three have already gone by.

I remain convinced the allegorical view is too fraught with too many vageries and open to too much personal interpretation (hence the mnay allegorical views out there).

Dispensatrionalism on the other hand needs little or no secondary or tertiary methodologies to define scriptures.

I agree, which is why I am post-rib and have rejected traditional dispensationalism and have shifted more towards the view that the church held for the first 19th centuries of Christendom. What you are alluding to here and are accusing me of doing is precisely what Darby did when he promoted the idea of pre-tribism and traditional dispensationalism in the mid 19th century.

Well remember many of the ante nicene fathers were dispensational
though they did not know the word. Darby just reintroduced teh methodology of interpretation that was lost due to Romanism and their hindering the people from reading the Scriptures. Reemember Augustine has been called teh fqather of allegorical interpretation with his opus -- the city of God.

[In Christ Alone]

Everyone is free to believe what they like, whether it be the correct view or not.

We'll all be on the same page in a few years.

[Marianne]

Originally Posted by In Christ Alone

Everyone is free to believe what they like, whether it be the correct view or not.

We'll all be on the same page in a few years.

If you believe that Jesus is also God well on earth By do you refuse the obey God and Gis commandment so to receive wisdom. John 14:15-17. The way to receive eternal life. You will have no excuse not to have done so.

[nolidad]

Hi IN Christ Alone:

Let me preface this post by saying I have never been too politically correct or the most gentle of speakers. I am kind of a blue collar kind of guy and tends to call a spade a spade. So please if I get a little acerbic or rough around the edges- it looks harsh in writing but I have no ill will. If I get offensive I am more than willing to apologize for my speech is much softer than my writing can appear (my spelling is better also)

Having said all that I would like to sum up some of your position concerning the book of Revelation and eschatology.

First you have posted from authors (whom I assume you believe) that Revelatrion is not sequential and chronological.

It is important to note that several visions had sequential elements within them; for example, seven seals, seven trumpets, seven bowls and three angels. These numbered events are clearly sequential. However multiple sets of numbered events each starting with one, implies that the sets are not sequential, but rather occur simultaneously.

So as you stated the seals , trumpets and bowls are simultaneously and are just rehashing the events from a differing perspective.

You also equated teh Matthew portion of the Olivet Discourse to the seals (which include the bowls and trumpets) of Revelation.

Here is a portion of your statement:

Parallel 1:

Matthew 24:5 --Many will come in Christ's name and deceive many.
Revelation 6:2 -- The 1st Seal - White horse and rider who is given a crown.

Parallel 2:

Matthew 24:6-7 -- Wars, nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom.
Revelation 6:3-4 -- The 2nd Seal - Red horse to take peace from the earth.

Parallel 3:

Matthew 24:7 -- Famines and earthquakes.
Revelation 6:5-6 -- The 3rd Seal - Black horse bringing famine.

Parallel 4:

Matthew 24:15 -- The Anti-Christ and the Abomination of Desolation
Revelation 6:7-8 -- The 4th Seal - Pale (Green) horse with Death and Hades. Power over 1/4 of the earth to kill by sword, famine, plague and wild beasts.

Now lastly you have declared that teh four horsemn of the apocalypse are four kingdoms and eras of history:

For many years we have stated the conventional view of the Christian church regarding the four horsemen is inaccurate. It is widely taught that the first horse, the White Horse of Revelation 6:2, is the Antichrist. This is inaccurate, for it is now clear these four horsemen are kingdoms and eras - and the first three have already gone by.

Well it is convenient that this author leaves the first three eras and kingdoms unmentioned and just loves th ecircumstantial symbology of teh green crescent with the chloros horse.

So who are the first three kingdoms? What are there eras??

Which kingdom came and decieved many (the white horse as you say), Whom did this nation conquer- as this kingdom is a rider conquering and to conquer???

Which kingdom (Red) took peace from the earth??? Which era is this???

Which kingdom brought famine to the earth and when??

also while we are at it, please interpret this for us and explain teh historical events these mean as teh seals, trumpets and bowls occur simultaneously.

7The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

2And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

As these are connected with th efirst seal-- when did these happen?? And how can people get sores who had teh mark of the beast if we are only entering the time when the beast will come according to your opnion?

8And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
9And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

3And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

When did the 2nd kingdom cause all this to happen and such destruction of fleets and sea life??

10And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
11And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

4And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.

You know my question now?? Point out when this took place. Even symbolically point it out.

Notice the similarities but more importantly notice the differences:

Seal 2 red horse war ,trumpet 2 1/3 die vial 2 ALL die

Seal 3 famine trumpet three bitter waters- vial 3-- water becomes blood.

While they can afflict teh same thing- the results are vastly different Especially teh fourth seal- trumpet- vial - we have darkness and we having scorching sun!

These arguments you present fall short! One has to allegorize enormously to fit these together as the antichrist being seperate from teh abomination who makes desolate (they are one and teh same as Thesselonians proves as well as Matthew and its prototype being antiochus Epiphanes during the Maccabean period).

I am sorry but your authors come up wioth conclusions that dont even resemble the words inspired by God. It seems to be a case of God said this but He meant this!

While we have to study and search and build doctrine line upon line- these authjors opinions are even beyond the preterists view and their gerrymandering to get ad 50-AD 70 period to fulfill teh book of Revelation.

[In Christ Alone]

Nolidad, if you are truly interested in this subject I would recommend, in addition to the links I've provided above on Progressive Dispensationalism, the following books for your consideration:

A Case For Historic Premillennialism (listen to Denver Seminary lectures here).
God's War On Terror (book review here and here).

You do not have to agree with everything that is written in these books, but I guarantee 100% that you will never view things the same way after reading them.

For over 20 years I was a traditional dispensationalist who was expecting a pre-trib rapture. I was even taught this view during my studies at Master's College & Seminary. Although I knew (whether subconsciously or not) that there were inherent problems with this position, I ignored them for years until I began speaking with Muslim associates of mine about Christianity. In doing so I also forced myself to study Islam so that I would be better equipped in answering their questions and responses. It didn't take long for me to realize that what I was reading about Islam was the direct antithesis to Christian eschatology. The Islamic world is being set up to accept Antichrist as their "Islamic savior" and to fight against Jesus Christ when He returns.

My views did not change over night, but in searching the Scriptures I have now come to understand the true origin of pretribism and the many theological (exegetical and hermeneutical) inconsistencies within that view, problems I could no longer ignore. I would rather know the truth, than to hold to a position such as pretribism that I now believed to be completely wrong on many levels.

[Marianne]

[QUOTE=In Christ Alone;25293]Nolidad, if you are truly interested in this subject I would recommend, in addition to the links I've provided above on Progressive Dispensationalism, the following books for your consideration:

A Case For Historic Premillennialism (listen to Denver Seminary lectures here).
God's War On Terror (book review here and here).
Do you believe that you will have sorted this out before the very soon retrurn of the Son of God? I hope so.

[Marianne]

How and by who will the battle end?

Revelation 6:9-11.
Then the Lamb broke open the fifty seal I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who has been killed because they has proclaimed God’s word and has been faithful in their witnessing. They shouted in a loud voice “Almighty Lord holy and true! How long will it be until you judge the people on earth and punish them for killing us?
Each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the NUMBER OF THEIR FELLOW SERVANTS AND BROTHERS HAD BEEN KILLED AS THEY HAS BEEN.
Revelation 6:15-17.
Then the kings of the earth, the rulers and military chiefs, the rich and the powerful and all other man, slave and free hid themselves in caves and under rocks on the mountains They called out to the mountains and rocks ,” Fall on us and hide us from the eyes of the one who sits on the throne and from the anger of the Jamb. The terrible day of their anger is here, and who is able to stand against it?
Those who has received the white Robe.
How do we receive the white Robe?

The three great players in the Battle of Armageddon revealed.
The Dragon is Satan. Revelation 12:4 With his tail he dragged a third of the stars out of the sky and threw them down to the earth. After he has lost the Battle against the Son of Man in heaven.
The beast is the Christian Church deceived by Satan and has been infiltrated by people who speak in tongues for this reason speak and act like frogs who catch their pry with their tongue. And perform miracles and wonders. They are gathering in Jerusalem to welcome the saviour of the world who will lead the battle against the Christian church.
The False prophet is the muslim world Those three is preparing for the final battle a three have nuclear capabilities and able to destroy the world but before this will happen God will destroy those who are at the point to destroy this world. The only way to solve this problem is that the Christians turn back to the obedience of God’s will and will not take part in this battle.
Time IS FAST RUNNING OUT.

[nolidad]

Originally Posted by In Christ Alone

Nolidad, if you are truly interested in this subject I would recommend, in addition to the links I've provided above on Progressive Dispensationalism, the following books for your consideration:

A Case For Historic Premillennialism (listen to Denver Seminary lectures here).
God's War On Terror (book review here and here).

You do not have to agree with everything that is written in these books, but I guarantee 100% that you will never view things the same way after reading them.

For over 20 years I was a traditional dispensationalist who was expecting a pre-trib rapture. I was even taught this view during my studies at Master's College & Seminary. Although I knew (whether subconsciously or not) that there were inherent problems with this position, I ignored them for years until I began speaking with Muslim associates of mine about Christianity. In doing so I also forced myself to study Islam so that I would be better equipped in answering their questions and responses. It didn't take long for me to realize that what I was reading about Islam was the direct antithesis to Christian eschatology. The Islamic world is being set up to accept Antichrist as their "Islamic savior" and to fight against Jesus Christ when He returns.

My views did not change over night, but in searching the Scriptures I have now come to understand the true origin of pretribism and the many theological (exegetical and hermeneutical) inconsistencies within that view, problems I could no longer ignore. I would rather know the truth, than to hold to a position such as pretribism that I now believed to be completely wrong on many levels.

well I will look at th elonks and study them- I an always opent o listent o someones biblical arguments. also I look at them critically, as I was converted to dispensationalism about 30 years ago.

I have studied covenant, preterist, and a whole host of other philosopohies and all of them have been found wanting biblically (they all used scriptures but then got into personal interpretations of apocalyptic language that fell apart upon careful review), I even debated Marvin Rosenthal about his book, teh pre wrath rapure ofthe church (he put the rapture about 3/4 way through the trib)..

I have 2 small books on progressive dispensationalism and they are pretty much standard dispy eschatology- so these you recommend must be another progressive school.

So I will study and if I find what in my opinion is faulty exegesis I will let you know.

[HAND2H]

Originally Posted by joeycastaneda56

(the rapture of the church) - (part 1)

........<<>> i noticed that we do not have (tread) on the (rapture of the church). I will have to post this (thread) in parts.

we mean by the rapture of the church the catching up of all the true believers in christ to meet the lord christ in the air. This event is simply and clearly predicted in - (1 thess.4:13-17; 1 cor.15:23, 51-58; phil.3:20, 21; john14:1-3; luke.21:34-36; col.3:4) and other passages we shall give below.

one reading of these passages will prove that there is to be such an event as the lord descending from heaven to take out of the world, in a moment of time, all the dead and living in christ. In fact, it would be hard to understand how even one person could fail to understand such a doctrine if he will be honest and believe what it plainly written in these passages. For example, - (1 thess.4:16, 17) says, "for the lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of god: And the dead in christ shall rise first: . . . Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the lord in the air: And so shall we ever be with the lord." in view of such plain language a person would have to arbitrarily deny what is written, or else believe that this event will happen just as it is plainly stated here. Surely there is no room for misunderstanding, so it is obvious that if one does not believe in the rapture it is because he does not believe the holy bible.

the rapture of the church is called "the coming of the lord" but never the second coming of christ. At the rapture christ does not appear visibly to those on the earth but he comes in the air above the earth to catch up or rapture the dead and living saints who rise together to meet the lord in the air. There are many different ideas about these two comings of christ, which have made it difficult to distinguish one coming from the other. There are so many scriptures that have been misapplied to the one or the other coming that one might readily see why many have found themselves involved in difficulties, from which they are unable to clear themselves. The rapture is purely a new testament doctrine and was first revealed to paul as a special revelation - (1 cor.15:51-58), while the second coming of christ is not only a new testament doctrine, but is one of the chief themes of the old testament. The old testament prophets never saw the new testament church, much less the rapture of the church. The rapture should never be called the second coming or second advent of christ, for he does not come to the earth at that time. Also, it should never be referred to as one stage or phase of the second coming of christ, for, at that event, the lord does not remain in the air during tribulation and then complete the second stage of his coming to the earth by coming literally to be among men, as some teach. The rapture is a distinct coming in itself, not to the earth, but in the air where christ meets the saints and then takes them back to heaven to present them blameless before god - (john.14:1-3; 1 thess.3:13; 4:16, 17).

i will add to the soon.

joeycastaneda56

you are failing to realize sir, that any coming of christ will be the second coming. He was already here once. The trumpet mentioned here, harmonizes too well to dismiss, with the seventh trumpet of revelation, judgment day.