The Rapture or The Catching Up of The Church

[HAND2H]

Originally Posted by nolidad

well i will look at th elonks and study them- i an always opent o listent o someones biblical arguments. Also i look at them critically, as i was converted to dispensationalism about 30 years ago.

I have studied covenant, preterist, and a whole host of other philosopohies and all of them have been found wanting biblically (they all used scriptures but then got into personal interpretations of apocalyptic language that fell apart upon careful review), i even debated marvin rosenthal about his book, teh pre wrath rapure ofthe church (he put the rapture about 3/4 way through the trib)..

I have 2 small books on progressive dispensationalism and they are pretty much standard dispy eschatology- so these you recommend must be another progressive school.

So i will study and if i find what in my opinion is faulty exegesis i will let you know.

when it comes to biblical subjects, there are no other sources to refer to, but the bible. To base your beliefs on any other book is putting your faith in man, not god. It could be dangerous. The bible stands alone. That's exactly where some far fetched and very dangerous beliefs originate, assumption, speculation, opinion, conjecture.

[HAND2H]

Originally Posted by In Christ Alone

Nolidad, you are arguing against covenant theology, which I also reject. Though it makes some valid points in a few areas, it replaces Israel with the Church, which is unscriptural. My view is much closer to the progressive dispensational view. You can read more of it here:

Progressive Dispensationalism: Introduction
Progressive Dispensationalism 101
Progressive Dispensationalism 102

Fruchtenbaum is a very good author, however in my opinion he makes a few fundamental errors that traditional dispensationalism makes. This became quite evident to me after my years at Master's College & Seminary.

Again, views and beliefs, based on a mans OPINION. DANGEROUS. THE BIBLE MUST STAND ALONE

[nolidad]

when it comes to biblical subjects, there are no other sources to refer to, but the bible. To base your beliefs on any other book is putting your faith in man, not god. It could be dangerous. The bible stands alone. That's exactly where some far fetched and very dangerous beliefs originate, assumption, speculation, opinion, conjecture.

But you forget Hand2H that God gave us Pastors and teachers to mature us. We must filter everything we read from men through the Word of God.
This is what beinig a berean Student of the Word is. Mednof God help us to understand what we do not yet.

[HAND2H]

Originally Posted by in christ alone

but it certainly makes much more sense, especially when considering verses such as gal 3:17 which speaks of "the covenant, that was confirmed before of god in christ" along with matt 26:28 which reads, "for this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins", and rom 15:8 which tells us that christ came "to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers", as well as numerous other passages.

Dan 9:27, "and he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week ...". Antichrist? I say no. The only way to conclude that it is referring to antichrist is to impose the idea of traditional dispensationalism into the text imho. There are so many problems with traditional dispensationalism that i have dropped it entirely and embraced progressive dispensationalism (read about it here).


And these translations, if correct, would give credence to the idea that the entire 70th week was already fulfilled with christ.


The following ten points provide logical and convincing evidence that daniel’s famous 70th week has no application to any future seven-year tribulation at all. Rather, this great prophetic period was definitely fulfilled nearly two thousand years ago.

1. the entire prophecy of daniel 9:24-27 covers a period of “seventy weeks,” or 490 years. Logic requires that “seventy weeks” refers to one consecutive block of time, in other words, to seventy straight sequential weeks. there is no example in scripture (or anywhere else!) of a stated time period starting, stopping, and then starting again. all biblical references to time are consecutive: 40 days and 40 nights (see genesis 7:4), 400 years in egypt (see genesis 15:13), 70 years of captivity (see daniel 9:2), etc. In daniel’s prophecy, the “seventy weeks” were to begin during the reign of persia and continue to the time of the messiah.
2. logic also requires that the 70th week follow immediately after the 69th week. If it doesn’t, then it cannot properly be called the 70th week!
3. it is illogical to insert a 2,000-year gap between the 69th and 70th week. No hint of a gap is found in the prophecy itself. There is no gap between the first seven weeks and the following sixty-two weeks, so why insert one between the 69th and 70th week?note: If you told your child to be in bed in 70 minutes, you obviously would mean 70 consecutive minutes. What if five hours later your fully awake son said, “but dad, i know 69 minutes have passed, but the 70th minute hasn’t started yet!”? After receiving an appropriate punishment, he would be swiftly sent to bed.
4. daniel 9:27 says nothing about a seven-year period of “tribulation,” a “rebuilt” jewish temple, or any “antichrist.”
5. the stated focus of this prophecy is the messiah, not the antichrist. After the messiah is “cut off” (referring to christ’s death), the text says, “and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.” i n the past, this has been consistently applied to the destruction of jerusalem and the second temple by roman armies led by prince titus in a.d. 70. 11
6. “he shall confirm the covenant.” paul said “the covenant” was “confirmed before by god in christ” (galatians 3:17). Jesus christ came “to confirm the promises made to the fathers” (romans 15:8, emphasis added). In the king james version, daniel 9:27 doesn’t say “ a covenant” or peace treaty, but “ the covenant,” which applies to the new covenant. Nowhere in the bible does the antichrist make, confirm, or break a covenant with anyone. The word “covenant” is messianic, and always applies to the messiah, not the antichrist.
7. “he shall confirm the covenant with many. ” jesus christ said, “this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many… ” (matthew 26:28). Behold a perfect fit! Jesus was quoting daniel 9:27 specifically.
8. “in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.” after exactly three and a half years of holy ministry, jesus christ died on the cross, “in the midst of the week [in the middle of the seven years].” at the exact moment of his death, “the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom…” (matthew 27:51). This act of god signified that all animal sacrifices at that moment ceased to be of value. Why? Because the perfect sacrifice had been offered!
9. “for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate.” “the abomination of desolation” (see matthew 24:15) is not a simple subject, yet we know that jesus clearly applied this event to the time when his followers were to flee from jerusalem before the destruction of the second temple in a.d. 70. In a parallel text to matthew 24:15, jesus told his disciples, “when you see jerusalem surrounded by armies [roman armies led by prince titus], then know that its desolation is near ” (luke 21:20, emphasis added). The disciples did “see” those very events. Because of the “abominations” of the pharisees, jesus told them, “see! Your house is left to you desolate” (matthew 23:38). Thus gabriel’s statement in daniel 9:27 about jerusalem becoming “desolate” was perfectly fulfilled in a.d. 70.
10. gabriel said that the 70-week prophecy specifically applied to the jewish people (see daniel 9:24). During the period of christ’s public ministry of 3 1 / 2 years, the master’s focus was largely upon “the lost sheep of the house of israel” (matthew 10:6). After his resurrection and then for another 3 1/2 years, his disciples preached mostly to jews (see acts 1-6). After that second 3 1/2 -year period, in 34 a.d., the bold stephen was stoned by the jewish sanhedrin (see acts 7). This infamous deed marked the then-ruling jewish leaders’ final, official rejection of the gospel of our savior. then the gospel went to the gentiles. In acts 9, saul became paul, the “apostle to the gentiles” (romans 11:13). In acts 10, god gave peter a vision revealing it was now time to preach to the gentiles (see acts 10:1-28). Read also acts 13:46. Thus approximately 3 1/2 years after the crucifixion— and at the end of the 70-week prophecy given for the jewish people—the gospel shifted to the gentiles exactly as predicted in bible prophecy.[1]

the tribulation is now going on 2000 years. The period that we call "great tribulation" will be cut short to 1260 days. This is the time, times and half a time that the prophet daniel speaks of (dan 12:7). Nowhere in scripture are we ever told about seven years of tribulation by any prophet or apostle. It does not exist.


Per above, the view that the 70th week was already fulfilled believes that when christ's ministry began it lasted for 3.5 years until he was crucified. This is when "the covenant was confirmed before of god in christ" (gal 3:17), the sacrifice and oblation ceased and "the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom" (matt 15:38). The gospel was then preached for the remaining 3.5 years to the jews primarily (rom 1:16), until the martyrdom of stephen (acts 7:59). At the completion of the 70th week saul became paul, and the gospel was then preached to the gentiles, who were then brought into the household of god and made fellow-citizens with the saints (eph 2).


I'll try to get to it at some point, looks like it's a long thread now so there would be much catching up to do.

you need to read revelation again man, seven year tribulation does and exist and will happen.

[nolidad]

Originally Posted by In Christ Alone

Nolidad, if you are truly interested in this subject I would recommend, in addition to the links I've provided above on Progressive Dispensationalism, the following books for your consideration:

A Case For Historic Premillennialism (listen to Denver Seminary lectures here).
God's War On Terror (book review here and here).

You do not have to agree with everything that is written in these books, but I guarantee 100% that you will never view things the same way after reading them.

For over 20 years I was a traditional dispensationalist who was expecting a pre-trib rapture. I was even taught this view during my studies at Master's College & Seminary. Although I knew (whether subconsciously or not) that there were inherent problems with this position, I ignored them for years until I began speaking with Muslim associates of mine about Christianity. In doing so I also forced myself to study Islam so that I would be better equipped in answering their questions and responses. It didn't take long for me to realize that what I was reading about Islam was the direct antithesis to Christian eschatology. The Islamic world is being set up to accept Antichrist as their "Islamic savior" and to fight against Jesus Christ when He returns.

My views did not change over night, but in searching the Scriptures I have now come to understand the true origin of pretribism and the many theological (exegetical and hermeneutical) inconsistencies within that view, problems I could no longer ignore. I would rather know the truth, than to hold to a position such as pretribism that I now believed to be completely wrong on many levels.

Well you see, teh biggest enemies of dispensational theology happen to be many of the dispensationalists themsleves. They tend to get caught up ala Hal Lindsay and think that the Left Behind series is a systematic theolgy course instead of fiction built around doctrine. I do not know whose works you studied but having been in Bible college and having taught in Bible college I have studied preterism, covenant eschatology, progressive dispensationalism, historic diuspensationalism and I guess what would be just called dispensational eschatology. The last, though still having problems (because almost all of the book of Revelation is still future) is the most faithful to Scripture.

[HAND2H]

Originally Posted by nolidad

but you forget hand2h that god gave us pastors and teachers to mature us. We must filter everything we read from men through the word of god.
this is what beinig a berean student of the word is. Mednof god help us to understand what we do not yet.

no sir, you pray for understanding every time you read the bible. Pastors are there to preach, not interpret SCRIPTURE WITHOUT SCRIPTURE TO SUPPORT THE INTERPRETATION

[HAND2H]

Originally Posted by liberated

pre-trib rapture teachers say what the bible says, it is the people who believe in going through the trib that take a scripture of of context and put it with another out of context scripture to make a false doctrine.
If post tribers was to read the bible more closer they would see that there are to many scriptures that prove the pre-trib rapture for it not to be true.
Also the people who realy want the truth check what the hebrew and greek say about a topic.
Why those that dont agree with the heb/greek text, is because they know it proves them wrong.

i beg to differ sir, the three books, matt,cor,thes, in which the pre-trib rapture originates, all have christ coming in the clouds mentioned. A trumpet is also mentioned in every one. This trumpet is the key to explaining when the rapture will take place. It harmonizes perfectly, without dispute, and too well to dismiss, with the seventh trumpet in revelation; judgment day.

[HAND2H]

i ask everyone hear to to look closely at revelation 11:15-19. The seventh trumpet. The last trumpet. It fits perfectly with the trumpets mentioned in matt,cor, thes. it is proof that there is not a pre trib rapture

[HAND2H]

Originally Posted by nolidad

well you see, teh biggest enemies of dispensational theology happen to be many of the dispensationalists themsleves. They tend to get caught up ala hal lindsay and think that the left behind series is a systematic theolgy course instead of fiction built around doctrine. I do not know whose works you studied but having been in bible college and having taught in bible college i have studied preterism, covenant eschatology, progressive dispensationalism, historic diuspensationalism and i guess what would be just called dispensational eschatology. The last, though still having problems (because almost all of the book of revelation is still future) is the most faithful to scripture.

you said the most faithful. Why use it AT all. Scripture, based on scripture, based on scripture, is and will always be true to scripture

[nolidad]

Originally Posted by HAND2H

you said the most faithful. Why use it AT all. Scripture, based on scripture, based on scripture, is and will always be true to scripture

This is true but you still forget Eph. 4: pastors and teachers (note teachers- they teach) for our maturity. Lone Ranger Christinas who are not under a local pastor have cut themselves off from teh full flow of grace and learning God wants to give.

I said we must check the words of men carefully against Scripture.

you said the most faithful. Why use it AT all. Scripture, based on scripture, based on scripture, is and will always be true to scripture

When you exegete and use proper hermeneutics yes, and when you have been trained and mature in the faitrh yes. New babes need lots of help and even old saints do as well. Looking at teh workls of other saints who have studied the scriptures and understand teh use of words (remember these werer spoken to people and the words used at times have unique meanings we do not fully know today without outside help.)

i ask everyone hear to to look closely at revelation 11:15-19. The seventh trumpet. The last trumpet. It fits perfectly with the trumpets mentioned in matt,cor, thes. it is proof that there is not a pre trib rapture

It fits well in your opinion but not in reality. Sorry if that sounds harsh. It is not intended to be.

You keep intimating that teh rapture and the return of Jesus occur almost simultaneously. the biggest problem with that is that the seventh trumpet
usher in the seven vial judgments. It is after these judgments happen on the earth does Jesus return in glory with the saints ( once again note Rev. 19)

7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Just 2 questions for you:

How can Jesus have the marriage feast with His bride in heaven if His bride is not alrady in heaven?

How can teh church return with Jesus to earth if they have not already been caught up in heaven as Thess. says?

The fact that the armies of heaven is the church is absolute based on a comparison of verses and 14.