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#11
07.26.2008
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 willieH: Hi brother R...  Quote:
 Just let me know where the "theology group" ...is... Quote:
It is my observation that THIS LIFETIME is the "Lake of Fire" One thing really interesting about the "Lake of Fire" is that it is not mentioned ANYWHERE in the WORD, except in the "REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST"... Which says to me... that it is part of the REVEALING of JESUS CHRIST... not some "future", eternal TORTURE chamber as many suppose it to be... The REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST is the REVEALING of LOVE... peaCe... willieH   |
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#12
07.26.2008
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| Hi, WillieH!! Welcome! Actually I do NOT know what hell IS in reality. No one knows, until you are there or not. I state the facts as I know them or FEEL them from scripture, etc. I agree..God IS love and he would not/will not send people to a LITERAL lake of ire as he IS pure love. Hitler and Stalin ARE forgivable...by God, but not by man. You KNOW as do I that those two are SURELY in HELL. I am NOT the judge, but ANYONE with a brain knows those two are SURELY in hell. Read your history...you will know...as well do they now.
__________________ WiseOne -- And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. ---- Zechariah 14:12 Truckers Forum - Political Forum  ___________________________________________ |
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#13
07.27.2008
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| Hi Willie, See Christian Groups above and click on that for the groups. It would be nice to get a member for my group. LOL! The hell commentary is in two parts and cites a lot of scripture. Meanwhile here are a few scriptures that do not seem to fit your point of view  22For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. 24And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. Isaiah 66 42And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. 43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. Mark 9 29And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? Matthew 8:29 19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Luke 16 |
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#14
07.27.2008
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 willieH: Hi WiseOne... Quote:
What parent which LOVES his child, ...ever TORMENTS the child? Stern CORRECTION at times is necessary IN the childs DEVELOPMENT... but TORMENT is observed as ABUSE... I do know what HELL ...IS in reality... it is NOT REALITY... As far as HELL being a "there"... it is unproveable that it is, an actual "place"... HELL as the Christian "church" presents it, ...is a place to be FEARED... however, GOD says in His WORD (not religion) that FEAR is NOT a part of LOVE... and anyone who FEARS, is IMPERFECT concerning LOVE. (1 John 4:18) There is no such place as HELL, it therefore is NOT REALITY. It exists as a fear tactic created by men, of RELIGION and is the basis for Babylon... other EXCLUSIVE teachings stem from it... such as the RAPTURE... The teaching of EXCLUSIVE Salvation is born IN the teaching of HELL... purporting in its proposal that MAN decides and "chooses" his destiny (when in fact we never see the "choices" available) and poor GOD, is left with the unenviable task of TORMENTING His beloved beings FOREVER...  John 3:16 is a favorite verse, quoted by Christians to support this thinking. It says: 16 God SO LOVED the WORLD, that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH in Him should NOT PERISH, but have everlasting life... It is proposed by Christianity that if YOU don't "believe" that you will PERISH... the failing in this thinking is that (1) GOD exclusively does the WORK of SALVATION (Eph 2:8-9) (2) deals the faith (Rom 12:3), (3) Draws the Salvation candidate by HIS decision ONLY (John 6:44), (4) and brings CONFESSION to the lips of that one by HIS POWER (1 Cor 12:3)... A MAIN misobservance of this verse is its removal from context, as the next verse says: 17For God SENT NOT his Son into the WORLD to CONDEMN the WORLD, but that the WORLD, through Him might be SAVED.... First... that GOD ...SO LOVED the WORLD... and the FACT that HE and His SON are UNCHANGING (Mal 3:6 / Heb 13:8 / James 1:17) means that GOD has ALWAYS, DOES, and ALWAYS WILL LOVE the WORLD... Second... It also means that He sent His Son NOT to CONDEMN... STOOD, STILL STANDS, and ALWAYS WILL STAND, as well! Quote:
HISTORY, my friend does not determine SPIRITUAL destiny... that is done by GOD... You are welcome to remain in the belief you have of HELL, ...I am not trying to convince you of anything. But you have been shown the truth about it... what you do with it is your affair... To say that Hitler, Stalin or anyone else is IN HELL, is to have passed a judgment upon their lives, using the criteria of your own life as a comparison... How else do you determine it? There is no Biblically stated MEASUREMENT as to what "sends a person to HELL". If there is, please provide it. The WORD of GOD teaches that we are to be preaching the GOSPEL of PEACE... (Rom 10:15 / Eph 6:15) There is NO PEACE in the teaching of HELL WiseOne, ...nor is there PEACE in the determination of anothers destiny, when we are instructed by CHRIST otherwise (Matt 7:1 / Luke 6:37) If you wish to oppose what I say concerning HELL WiseOne, and hope observers of our convo shall find your arguement as valid... you must pose SCRIPTURE upon which to base that position, otherwise, your words are reduced to an opinion only.  In the presentation of my position on "HELL", I have noted many Scriptures to found it... If you believe me incorrect, then use the Scriptures to CORRECT me, for THAT is in part, WHAT they are FOR: (2 Tim 3:16) ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for DOCTRINE, for REPROOF, for CORRECTION, for INSTRUCTION in RIGHTEOUSNESS, that the Man of God be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works... I have used it to CORRECT the mythical and FEARFUL teaching of HELL, and in order for you to establish what you say above, YOU must USE IT (Scripture), to invalidate what I have said... if you are able. In order to disprove what I say, you must begin with WORD meanings which are translated from Greek and Hebrew into the word English word HELL, beginning with the original meaning of the Old English word HEL which is its "English" foundation, and then, ...the Greek (Hades, Gehenna, Tartarus) and Hebrew (Sheol)... Then and only then can you step forward, for if your DEFINITIONS of this "place" [HELL] are incorrect, then all information following those definitions, shall be same... peacE... willieH  |
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#15
07.27.2008
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| WOW, you can sure write! Anyway...some things ARE known in the heart and there is no other way to explain it....plus it IS mentioned in the Bible that the absence from God FOREVER IS HELL.... Glad to have you here!
__________________ WiseOne -- And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. ---- Zechariah 14:12 Truckers Forum - Political Forum ___________________________________________ |
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#16
07.27.2008
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| My comments in ( ) God IS LOVE... and LOVE does not practice TORMENT... if anything, it practices CORRECTION. ( God is love. God is also Holy and Just which is why there must be a judgement.) What parent which LOVES his child, ...ever TORMENTS the child? Stern CORRECTION at times is necessary IN the childs DEVELOPMENT... but TORMENT is observed as ABUSE... ( Not everyone is a child of God.) I do know what HELL ...IS in reality... it is NOT REALITY... ( According to the Bible hell is a reality. We can dicker over what the name of hell means but the Bible clearly shows it to be a destination, a real place.) As far as HELL being a "there"... it is unproveable that it is, an actual "place"... (That depends on whether you consider the scriptures to be proof or not. On a secular level there are also the accounts of those who have had a negative NDE. ) HELL as the Christian "church" presents it, ...is a place to be FEARED... however, GOD says in His WORD (not religion) that FEAR is NOT a part of LOVE... and anyone who FEARS, is IMPERFECT concerning LOVE. (1 John 4:18) ( The Bible tells us that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. You are using the word fear in a generic sense that takes it out of context. Gods elect have nothing to fear. The lost have everything to fear.) There is no such place as HELL, it therefore is NOT REALITY. It exists as a fear tactic created by men, of RELIGION and is the basis for Babylon... other EXCLUSIVE teachings stem from it... such as the RAPTURE... (Again the Bible affirms hell the place in numerous passages. This belief that hell does not exist does not come from scripture.) The teaching of EXCLUSIVE Salvation is born IN the teaching of HELL... purporting in its proposal that MAN decides and "chooses" his destiny (when in fact we never see the "choices" available) and poor GOD, is left with the unenviable task of TORMENTING His beloved beings FOREVER... ( I`m not sure where you get that idea from. The Bible says that God does the chooosing not man. The debate over who does the choosing has nothing to do with the debate over whether hell is a real place or not.) John 3:16 is a favorite verse, quoted by Christians to support this thinking. It says: 16 God SO LOVED the WORLD, that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH in Him should NOT PERISH, but have everlasting life... It is proposed by Christianity that if YOU don't "believe" that you will PERISH... ( The point of perishing if you don`t believe is proposed by scripture not Christianity.) the failing in this thinking is that (1) GOD exclusively does the WORK of SALVATION (Eph 2:8-9) (2) deals the faith (Rom 12:3), (3) Draws the Salvation candidate by HIS decision ONLY (John 6:44), (4) and brings CONFESSION to the lips of that one by HIS POWER (1 Cor 12:3)... ( How is that a failing? Not everyone is chosen for salvation. ) A MAIN misobservance of this verse is its removal from context, as the next verse says: 17For God SENT NOT his Son into the WORLD to CONDEMN the WORLD, but that the WORLD, through Him might be SAVED.... First... that GOD ...SO LOVED the WORLD... and the FACT that HE and His SON are UNCHANGING (Mal 3:6 / Heb 13:8 / James 1:17) means that GOD has ALWAYS, DOES, and ALWAYS WILL LOVE the WORLD... Second... It also means that He sent His Son NOT to CONDEMN... STOOD, STILL STANDS, and ALWAYS WILL STAND, as well! ( The world through Him is saved. Doesn`t mean everything and everyone in it is saved.) Quote: Originally Posted by WiseOne  Hitler and Stalin ARE forgivable...by God, but not by man. You KNOW as do I that those two are SURELY in HELL. I am NOT the judge, but ANYONE with a brain knows those two are SURELY in hell. Read your history...you will know...as well do they now. SURELY? How can you make such a brash and unproveable statement W-O? HISTORY, my friend does not determine SPIRITUAL destiny... that is done by GOD... You are welcome to remain in the belief you have of HELL, ...I am not trying to convince you of anything. But you have been shown the truth about it... what you do with it is your affair... ( Your contentions about hell and the devil are not truth. They are simply your opinion and it does not stand up to the test of scripture.) To say that Hitler, Stalin or anyone else is IN HELL, is to have passed a judgment upon their lives, using the criteria of your own life as a comparison... How else do you determine it? ( We are able to judge one another on the basis of the fruits that we bear in our lives. The fruits of Stalin and Hitler speak for themselves. ) There is no Biblically stated MEASUREMENT as to what "sends a person to HELL". If there is, please provide it. ( Ok, 19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21 ) The WORD of GOD teaches that we are to be preaching the GOSPEL of PEACE... (Rom 10:15 / Eph 6:15) There is NO PEACE in the teaching of HELL WiseOne, ...nor is there PEACE in the determination of anothers destiny, when we are instructed by CHRIST otherwise (Matt 7:1 / Luke 6:37) In order to disprove what I say, you must begin with WORD meanings which are translated from Greek and Hebrew into the word English word HELL, beginning with the original meaning of the Old English word HEL which is its "English" foundation, and then, ...the Greek (Hades, Gehenna, Tartarus) and Hebrew (Sheol)... Then and only then can you step forward, for if your DEFINITIONS of this "place" [HELL] are incorrect, then all information following those definitions, shall be same... ( Disputing what the word hell means doesn`t prove anything but below is some information on that topic. ) Sheol (Hebrew) - It is the non-permanent place or temporary address of the disembodied souls of dead. It is not the grave or sepulcher, nor is it the eternal location of the souls of the dead. It is the same as the Greek word "Hades", which we will look at in a moment. Prior to Jesus Christ's resurrection, both the souls of the evil and the righteous went there after death. It is translated "grave" 31 times, "hell" 31 times, and "pit" 3 times in King James Version (KJV) of the Bible. Sheol (or Hades) has two separate halves. One side was and is reserved for the torment of the evil, while the other side, called "Abraham's Bosom" in Luke 16:22, was for the comfort of the righteous. There is and impassable canyon, or gulf, between the two halves. When Christ was resurrected, he led the righteous out of Sheol to Heaven. Many (probably not all) of the Old Testament saints were resurrected into their immortal bodies at that time (Matthew 27:51-53). Since then, the souls of all of the saved people go directly to Heaven when their bodies die. The lost people still go to Sheol and join the lost people of the Old Testament in torment on one side of the canyon when they die. The other side of Sheol formerly known as Abraham's Bosom has been vacant since Jesus Christ led the saints within it to heaven after His resurrection. The English word "Hell" refers to a place of eternal punishment for the wicked. Its meaning does not distinguish between the two separate places for the wicked to be punished, one temporary for the soul, and the other, the Lake of Fire, permanent for the soul and body. Nor does its meaning include the place of comfort for saints prior to Christ's resurrection. In normal English conversation, "Hell" is used only in the negative sense, with no saved people ever going there. This caused some inadequate translations of "Sheol" and "Hades". Often these words are translated "Hell", which, as just explained, is rather ambiguous and non-descriptive. In many other places "Sheol" and "Hades" are translated as "grave", but the grave is only the place for the body after death, not the place for the soul. This confusion often occurs when the verse refers to a righteous man going to "Sheol", such as men like Jacob, Joseph, (Genesis 37:35) and Job (Job 14:13). Of course, these men did not go to a place of torment, but to the comfort side of Sheol (Hades), called Abraham's Bosom. Hades (Greek) - It is identical to Sheol (Hebrew). It is the non- permanent place or temporary address of the disembodied souls of dead. It is not the grave or sepulcher, nor is it the eternal location of the souls of the dead. Hades is translated "Hell" 10 times and "grave" once by KJV. It is the place for the soul, not the body. Gehenna (Greek, but originally from a Hebrew name) - translated "Hell" all 12 times in KJV It is the permanent place for destruction of the "... soul and body ..." (Matthew 10:28). It is a place of "... fire that never shall be quenched" (Mark 9:45). In most of the references, it is clear from the context that those who enter Gehenna, do so in their bodies, not merely as bodiless souls. For this to happen, it must occur after the resurrection of the damned at the great white throne of judgment. Therefore, Gehenna is the Lake of Fire described in Revelation 19 and 20. It is presently uninhabited, but the Beast and the False Prophet will be cast into it at the end of the tribulation (Revelation 19:20). One thousand years later, Satan will be cast into it (Rev 20:10) and will be followed shortly by the lost people of all previous time periods (Revelation 20:15). They will all enter Gehenna together, in there resurrected bodies, where they will remain in torment for all eternity. The future destruction of the wicked is symbolized by the Valley of Hinnom to which Gehenna refers. It is a place south of Jerusalem where the bodies of dead animals and rubbish were taken to be burned. The Valley of Hinnom was also the site of much human sacrifice to the pagan god Molech (2 Kings 23:10, 2 Chronicles 28:3, 33:6, Jeremiah 32:35). The fire burned constantly in the valley since additional fuel was frequently being cast into it. "And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart. Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be called Tophet, nor the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter: for they shall bury in Tophet, till there be no place" (Jeremiah 7:31-32). Here we see that in the Valley of Hinnom is a place called "Tophet" whose name means "place of fire". "For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it" (Isaiah 30:33). limne pur (Greek) - "lake of fire" occurs 4 times, all in Revelation 19 and 20. This is Gehenna, into which the resurrected damned are cast. Limne means "lake" and is translated as such all 10 times it occurs by the KJV. Pur means "fire" and is translated so 73 times by the KJV while being translated "fiery" once. Other key terms tartaroo (Greek) - Refers to "Tartarus" and only occurs once in 2 Peter 2:4 where it is translated "hell" "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment ...." This is probably a separate place from Hades, and may be a place only for fallen angels. There are no Biblical references to people going there. grave (English) - The place for the fleshly body after death, sepulcher. It is not the abode of the soul or spirit. abussos (Greek) - Abyss. It is translated "bottomless pit" 5 times, "deep" twice, and "bottomless" twice by KJV. It is where Satan will be locked up for the 1000 years of Christ's reign on earth. This is thought by many to be the same as the impassable gulf described in Luke 16:26. chasma (Greek) - a gaping opening, chasm, or gulf. It is translated "gulf" in its only occurrence in Luke 16:26, where it is the canyon separating the torment and comfort sides of Hades. Abraam kolpos (Greek) - Abraham's Bosom (Luke 16:22). Abraam is translated "Abraham" all 73 times. Kolpos is translated bosom 5 times and creek once (Acts 27:39). paradeisos - Paradise. It is translated "paradise" all 3 times by the KJV. "Paradise" is not the English translation of any other Greek word in scripture. First we hear the words of the thief and Jesus Christ on their crosses in Luke 23:42-43, "And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." In 2 Corinthians 12:4, Paul tells how he was "... caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter." In Revelation 2:7, Jesus told the church of Ephesus "... To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life which is in the midst of the paradise of God." The tree of life is also mentioned in Revelation 22:2, in the new heaven and new earth, where it appears to be not just one tree, but a type of tree of which there are more than one. Since the three references show paradise to be in different places, then either paradise has been relocated once and will yet be relocated again, or it is a general term. Summary Sheol (Hebrew) and Hades (Greek) are the temporary place of torment for the souls of the wicked dead. Prior to Christ's resurrection, saints were kept and comforted in the now vacant half of Hades, known as Abraham's Bosom. Gehenna (Greek, but from a Hebrew name) is the Lake of Fire for the permanent place of torment of the souls of the wicked dead in their resurrected bodies. Hell is a rather general and inadequate term that is often used to refer to either Gehenna or the torment side of Hades, both by those who know the basic difference between these two specific places and by those who do not.  |
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#17
07.27.2008
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| willieH: Hi brother Rick... Lets take these one post at a time, shall we? Quote:
Meanwhile, you note they SEEM to not fit... If TRUTH is found, then everything will "fit"... I find that there are over 120 verses in the Word of GOD which DO NOT "FIT" with HELL... such as (Ps 30:5) and JESUS' teachings to LOVE enemies, BLESS them, PRAY for them, etc... As far as these below, here is my take: 22For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. 24And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. Isaiah 66 What does "ALL FLESH" say to you Rick? Does that term somehow, DISINCLUDE any FLESH? These noted here are observing the CARCASES of MEN who have TRANSGRESSED against GOD... the FLESH in which SIN took place... Let me ask you a question brother Rick, ...How many "MEN" have TRANSGRESSED against GOD? Does this leave out ANY of us?  EZIEKIEL spoke of this... (Ez 20:42) 42 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to your fathers. 43 And there shall ye remember your ways, and all your doings, wherein ye have been defiled; and ye shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for all your evils that ye have committed. 44 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have wrought with you for my name's sake, not according to your wicked ways, nor according to your corrupt doings, O ye house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD. (Ez 6:9) 9 And they that escape of you shall remember me among the nations whither they shall be carried captives, because I am broken with their whorish heart, which hath departed from me, and with their eyes, which go a ******* after their idols: and they shall lothe themselves for the evils which they have committed in all their abominations. (Ezekiel 36:31) 31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. CHRIST noted this: (Luke 21:32) Verily I say unto you, THIS GENERATION, shall not PASS AWAY until ALL be FULFILLED... (1) When observing CHRIST's teachings... you must first know that they are ENTIRELY PARABOLIC... (Matt 4:34) Even though, amidst the PARABOLIC language, He gave images of teachings... such as is contained in Luke 21:32... (2) CHRIST was sent EXCLUSIVELY, to the LOST SHEEP of ISRAEL... (Matt 15:24) What does this mean? It means that ALL of CHRIST's teachings were of a language of the SPIRIT (his WORDS are SPIRIT and TRUTH)... The NATURAL EAR is unable to HEAR these SPIRITUAL WORDS... and within the context of the SPIRITUAL WORDS are FIGURATIVE stories... In other words... The JEWS for the most part were DEAF to the PARABOLIC (SPIRITUAL) language He spoke, but even those who were NOT DEAF, still had to have PARABLES which were amidst the language as figurative stories, explained... as exampled here: (Mk 4:34 / John 16:17-19) where CHRIST had to "interpret" or explain, the meanings of Parables even to His Disciples. So what am I saying in this? CHRIST fulfilled ALL PROPHESIES made of Him... Is 66:22 Speaks of a "New Heaven and New Earth"... the "New Heaven" is the converted SOUL, the "New Earth" is the BODY which FREELY DISOBEYED, being brought into subjection to the "NEW HEAVEN" which is now IN US, by CHRIST... (Gal 2:20) When we become converted, we bring our behaviors, via the power of CHRIST, into subjection... (Rom 12:1) Even though it is a work of a lifetime, CHRIST is able to empower our lives to the degree of HOLINESS... which we are unable to do under our own power... And we then, LOATHE our past CARNAL SELF, and the CARCASE of it... As you (in newness of life) look back on the "Old Rick", do you look at him with love or admiration? Or are you GLAD and THANKFUL, that "he" is NO MORE? Peace... willieH |
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#18
07.27.2008
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| I find that there are over 120 verses in the Word of GOD which DO NOT "FIT" with HELL... such as (Ps 30:5) and JESUS' teachings to LOVE enemies, BLESS them, PRAY for them, etc... ( 120 verses....Hmmmm....Is that all? I would expect to find a lot more then just 120. A verse that isn`t talking about the lost will not fit the lost. Likewise a verse that pertains to God`s elect will not fit the lost. Verses that address the saved will not fit verses that talk about hell.) As far as these below, here is my take: 22For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. 24And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. Isaiah 66 What does "ALL FLESH" say to you Rick? Does that term somehow, DISINCLUDE any FLESH? ( The term all flesh refers to those who will be living at period of time. Those who are dead are not in the flesh neither will those who have been resurrected with a celestial body be in the flesh.That isn`t a point that be reasonably argued.) These noted here are observing the CARCASES of MEN who have TRANSGRESSED against GOD... the FLESH in which SIN took place... Let me ask you a question brother Rick, ...How many "MEN" have TRANSGRESSED against GOD? Does this leave out ANY of us? ( Those who are washed in the blood of the Lamb have their transgression washed away. The carcases are those who have died in their sins.) EZIEKIEL spoke of this... (Ez 20:42) 42 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to your fathers. 43 And there shall ye remember your ways, and all your doings, wherein ye have been defiled; and ye shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for all your evils that ye have committed. 44 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have wrought with you for my name's sake, not according to your wicked ways, nor according to your corrupt doings, O ye house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD. (Ez 6:9) 9 And they that escape of you shall remember me among the nations whither they shall be carried captives, because I am broken with their whorish heart, which hath departed from me, and with their eyes, which go a ******* after their idols: and they shall lothe themselves for the evils which they have committed in all their abominations. (Ezekiel 36:31) 31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. CHRIST noted this: (Luke 21:32) Verily I say unto you, THIS GENERATION, shall not PASS AWAY until ALL be FULFILLED... (1) When observing CHRIST's teachings... you must first know that they are ENTIRELY PARABOLIC... (Matt 4:34) Even though, amidst the PARABOLIC language, He gave images of teachings... such as is contained in Luke 21:32... (2) CHRIST was sent EXCLUSIVELY, to the LOST SHEEP of ISRAEL... (Matt 15:24) What does this mean? It means that ALL of CHRIST's teachings were of a language of the SPIRIT (his WORDS are SPIRIT and TRUTH)... The NATURAL EAR is unable to HEAR these SPIRITUAL WORDS... and within the context of the SPIRITUAL WORDS are FIGURATIVE stories... In other words... The JEWS for the most part were DEAF to the PARABOLIC (SPIRITUAL) language He spoke, but even those who were NOT DEAF, still had to have PARABLES which were amidst the language as figurative stories, explained... as exampled here: (Mk 4:34 / John 16:17-19) where CHRIST had to "interpret" or explain, the meanings of Parables even to His Disciples. So what am I saying in this? CHRIST fulfilled ALL PROPHESIES made of Him... ( No He didn`t. There are many unfullfilled prophecies which is one reason why Jesus is coming back.) Is 66:22 Speaks of a "New Heaven and New Earth"... the "New Heaven" is the converted SOUL, the "New Earth" is the BODY which FREELY DISOBEYED, being brought into subjection to the "NEW HEAVEN" which is now IN US, by CHRIST... (Gal 2:20) ( Galatians 2:20 has nothing to do with the new heaven and the new earth and your opinion does not agree with the scriptures.) 1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. 9And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 19And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; 20The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. 21And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass. 22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. Revelation 21 |
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#19
07.28.2008
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| willieH: Hi Rick...  [quote]willieH: I find that there are over 120 verses in the Word of GOD which DO NOT "FIT" with HELL... such as (Ps 30:5) and JESUS' teachings to LOVE enemies, BLESS them, PRAY for them, etc...[/quote] Quote:
You present me 3 verses which you pose as an arguement for HELL... and find that 120 is a small number... lol...  I did not say that those verses pertain to GOD's Elect... I said they are in OPPOSITION to HELL... we are discussing HELL, not GOD's elect... you erect fallacies and misdirection, in an effort to defend your beloved FEAR "Gospel" brother Rick... Quote:
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Is 66:22-24 doesn't say ALL FLESH "living at that period of time" ... It just says ALL FLESH (period)... also this cannot be speaking of THE ETERNAL state, for FLESH and blood CANNOT inherit the Kingdom of GOD... (1 Cor 15:50) ...so much for ALL FLESH coming to worship before GOD in your proposed "new Heaven and New earth" Once again brother, you are found ADDING to what is WRITTEN (ALL FLESH "at that period of time"), and stand upon the sand of your ADDITIONS... Hoping to found this religious myth of HELL, which blasphemously and illogically, ...DEGRADES the GOD of LOVE... and SALVATION... In the process, exalting MAN, to have the ability to override GOD's stated WILL (2 Peter 3:19) concerning Salvation... That you might facilitate HELL and FEAR in others... proposing GOD to be a "Hitler" of INFINITE proportions... trying to scare others into the Kingdom... how sad... Instead of promoting LOVE... the one thing which is commonly sought by ALL human beings... Negating Scriptures which PLAINLY STATE that His WRATH is EXTREMELY Brief (Ps 30:5 - a MOMENT) and that HIS MERCY endures FOREVER... stated far too many times to note, but found in Ps 136, alone, SEVENTEEN separate TIMES! Quote:
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Please... this is not speaking of anyone which has been SAVED, nor that have had their SINS "washed away"... It is speaking of ALL MEN who have TRANSGRESSED... Which is ALL MEN... It SAYS what it SAYS... "ALL FLESH" ... and "MEN who have TRANSGRESSED"... ALL MEN have transgressed Rick, and are therefore in NEED of SALVATION... You are found ADDING to what is said in this Scripture Rick... believe what you will... Quote:
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 According to YOU, CHRIST's words here are negated: Matt 5:17 Think NOT that I am come to destroy the law and the PROPHETS, ...I am come to FULFIL You view with NATURAL eyes dear brother... CHRIST FULFILLED all that was said of HIM... He is an ETERNAL entity... and when He said "IT IS FINISHED", he was not conveying that there was "MORE to DO"... This is classic "cart before the horse" RELIGION practiced and taught by the "church"... Quote:
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Of course it does brother... If it has nothing to do with the New heaven and New earth... what is the meaning of... (2 Cor 5:16-17) 16 Wherefore henceforth know we NO MAN after the FLESH, yea though we have know CHRIST ...AFTER THE FLESH, yet now henceforth know we no more... 17 therefore If any man be IN CHRIST, he is a NEW CREATURE, old things are PASSED AWAY, ...Behold ALL THINGS are BECOME NEW? You are waiting upon something that is ALREADY HERE! Making the same grave error that the Pharisees of the Hebrew nation made before you... as they stubbornly percieved a NATURAL event, and thereby missed the SPIRITUAL one! Luke 17:20-21 20 and when He was demanded of the Pharisees, when the KINGDOM of GOD should COME, he answered: The KINGDOM of GOD ...COMETH NOT... with OBSERVATION... 21 Neither SHALL they say, Lo here! or lo there! for BEHOLD, the KINGDOM of GOD is WITHIN YOU... You sit waiting for NATURAL visitation as did the Pharisees, remaining in your blindness as did they... not discerning the meaning of SPIRITUAL sayings... ADDING to Scripture, ...that which is necessary to support TRADITIONAL RELIGIOUS philosophy... which neutralizes the TRUTH of the WORD in you... (Mk 7:13) Then you quote below, of the REVEALING of LOVE... which is done from WITHIN, and is seen in the SPIRIT, not via some NATURAL religious and foolish observation which looks to the PHYSICAL, ...as I have just proven from Scripture... Quote:
And further displays the carnal taintedness of the HELL Gospel, which the Apostles Paul and John did not teach, nor Jude, nor James, nor Luke in writing the book of Acts... but is THAT in which the "church" finds its "mission" HELL belongs to all who bear its testimony... For they exalt it above the LOVE of GOD... and propose IT to be the ULTIMATE VICTOR... claiming MOST, for ever...  To which CHRIST shall one day, ...say: Matt 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have WE not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never KNEW YOU, depart from Me, ...YE that WORK INIQUITY... peace... willieH Last edited by willieH; 07.28.2008 at 10:28 PM. Reason: Forum background change made post illegible |
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#20
07.28.2008
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| willieH: Hi wiseone... Quote:
Oh really? You are speaking out of your hat, not the BIBLE... Where (in the Bible) is this stated? Please note BOOK, CHAPTER and VERSE please, ...thanks!(PS... thanks for the welcome WiseOne!) peace... willieH Last edited by willieH; 07.28.2008 at 10:29 PM. |
