Hell?

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Rick...

I'll answer your post #16 tomorrow, far too long to deal with tonite!

G'nite ...willieH

[Rick]

My comments in ( )


You present me 3 verses which you pose as an arguement for HELL... and find that 120 is a small number... lol...


( I think verse numbers are irrelevant however there are more then 50 places in the Bible that mention hell by name and numerous others that talk about about hell using various other terms.)

I did not say that those verses pertain to GOD's Elect... I said they are in OPPOSITION to HELL... we are discussing HELL, not GOD's elect... you erect fallacies and misdirection, in an effort to defend your beloved FEAR "Gospel" brother Rick...

( You brought up the topic of hell Willie. I didn`t. Hell is a topic I rarely talk about. And when you say a verse is in opposition to hell you mean a verse that talks about somebody who`s not going there. There is no fallacy or misdirection. At least not on my part. According to you there is no hell and so obviously that being the case there is no need for anyone to worry about sins of any kind. We can all just go out and kill,pillage and burn and just do anything. Even kill millions such as Stalin and Hitler did.
There are no consequences because God loves everyone so much that he won`t punish anyone and no one who has been wronged will get justice from God. He`s just a softy. Right? No I don`t think that`s the way it will be. In addition to being love, God is Holy, Just and sin can make Him angry. There are many, many warnings about that in the Bible.)


Is 66:22-24 doesn't say ALL FLESH "living at that period of time" ...

( It doesn`t have to. You have be alive to be in the flesh.)

It just says ALL FLESH (period)... also this cannot be speaking of THE ETERNAL state, for FLESH and blood CANNOT inherit the Kingdom of GOD... (1 Cor 15:50) ...so much for ALL FLESH coming to worship before GOD in your proposed "new Heaven and New earth"

( You just don`t comprehend what the passage is talking about. When this Age is over with there will be another one. The Bible is talking about people who will be born in that period of time. Just as there are celestial beings and flesh beings now, there will be so then as well. The difference is that in the next Age Jesus Christ will rule the earth from Jerusalem.)

Once again brother, you are found ADDING to what is WRITTEN (ALL FLESH "at that period of time")

( I`m not adding a thing. You are. All flesh will come and worship just as the Bible says. Those who have been resurrected from the dead will not be flesh.)

and stand upon the sand of your ADDITIONS... Hoping to found this religious myth of HELL, which blasphemously and illogically, ...DEGRADES the GOD of LOVE... and SALVATION...

(Something that is spoken about throughout scripture is hardly a myth. You degrade the God of love by insisting that he is unjust, that He will not punish the unholiness of the wicked and by implication you call Him a liar.)

In the process, exalting MAN, to have the ability to override GOD's stated WILL (2 Peter 3:19) concerning Salvation...

(There is no 2nd Peter 3:19. The chapter only has 18 verses.)

That you might facilitate HELL and FEAR in others... proposing GOD to be a "Hitler" of INFINITE proportions... trying to scare others into the Kingdom... how sad...

( Fear of the Lord is a good thing not a bad thing. But you work to turn it into the devils lies and speak variance against God in doing so. It`s time for you to let this topic drop because you are rapidly losing your objectivity.)

Instead of promoting LOVE... the one thing which is commonly sought by ALL human beings...

Negating Scriptures which PLAINLY STATE that His WRATH is EXTREMELY Brief (Ps 30:5 - a MOMENT) and that HIS MERCY endures FOREVER... stated far too many times to note, but found in Ps 136, alone, SEVENTEEN separate TIMES!

( You take a lot of things out of context in order to make your opinion work for you.)




10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:




11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.




34And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.



29And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

17For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:


5And said, I beseech thee, O LORD God of heaven, the great and terrible God, that keepeth covenant and mercy for them that love him and observe his commandments:


32Now therefore, our God, the great, the mighty, and the terrible God, who keepest covenant and mercy, let not all the trouble seem little before thee, that hath come upon us, on our kings, on our princes, and on our priests, and on our prophets, and on our fathers, and on all thy people, since the time of the kings of Assyria unto this day.




2For the LORD most high is terrible; he is a great King over all the earth.




3Say unto God, How terrible art thou in thy works! through the greatness of thy power shall thine enemies submit themselves unto thee.



3Let them praise thy great and terrible name; for it is holy.


11And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?



31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.



2That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.




13Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name.




20Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God; him shalt thou serve, and to him shalt thou cleave, and swear by his name.




9The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.




14The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.


7The angel of the LORD encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them.


7Thou, even thou, art to be feared: and who may stand in thy sight when once thou art angry?




7The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.




26I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;



27When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.


7Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.




24The fear of the wicked, it shall come upon him: but the desire of the righteous shall be granted.




13Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.



22Fear ye not me? saith the LORD: will ye not tremble at my presence, which have placed the sand for the bound of the sea by a perpetual decree, that it cannot pass it: and though the waves thereof toss themselves, yet can they not prevail; though they roar, yet can they not pass over it?


5But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

1Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.



12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.




8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.




( There are two kinds of fear. There is Godly fear. And then there is fear. The love that casts out fear doesn`t cast out the Godly fear that we are commanded to have. Godly fear is a good thing that leads to reverence for God and holiness.And it is wrong to speak against it))





It SAYS what it SAYS... "ALL FLESH" ... and "MEN who have TRANSGRESSED"... ALL MEN have transgressed Rick, and are therefore in NEED of SALVATION...

( All have transgressed and that is beside the point.)


According to YOU, CHRIST's words here are negated:

( According to me the Bible stands as written. The only one denying scripture here has been you.)


Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have WE not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never KNEW YOU, depart from Me, ...YE that WORK INIQUITY...

( I`m not going to address your interpretation of scripture except to say you take a lot of liberties with it. The very thing you attempt to accuse me of doing. But look at your verse above. It says why they are sent away. It`s because they were workers of iniquity and they are being sent to be with the rest of the workers of iniquity. I think it would be best if we ended this conversation because it is obviously a sensitive issue for you and if we go on I think you will end up with hurt feelings. This thread will be moved to the debate forum where it belongs.)

[Rick]

I have banned Willie so I will address my remarks to just whoever chooses to read these posts. Willie`s beligerence has crossed over the line of Christian etiquette and was only going to get worse from here. I am to the point where conversation must end because I can no longer ignore his abuse. I am quite capable of handeling Willie but I choose not to have that kind of variance on this website. It`s too bad really because Willie is an interesting heretic. Let`s review his beliefs.

Willie states that he believes the following things,

1) There is no hell and hell is a mistranslation and misunderstanding of the word grave.

2) Satan and his kingdom does not exist.

3) There is no lake of fire or future judgement of the lost.

4) All punishment of sin occurs in this life

5) There will not be a new heaven or a new earth so Willie does not appear to believe that God will ever create anything new.

6) Being in the flesh including both the dead and the living. Yet moving on from this life is some kind of a spiritual state of existence. We did not progress far enough for him to clarify his opinion on this but he apparently does not accept the traditional view of resurrection into a new immortal, celestial body as described in 1st corinthians chapter 15.

7) Man has no freewill of his own and everything man does is the will of God.

8) Everyone will be saved and no one will be lost or punished except those who believe that not everyone is going to be saved.

9) The fundamental beliefs of the churches are just religeon.

10) The Bible is filled with spiritual symbolism that must be interpreted to be understood.

11) God is not an absolute ruler over creation.


Willie of course believes he can support these views with scripture. If you are willing to broadly interpret scripture you can make it say just about anything you want it to. At least within your own mind. The basis for apostasy is interpretation of scripture. In order to understand gospel truth we must accept what scripture literally says and let the Bible intepret itself. The Bible tells us that God is not the author of confusion and the Bible does an excellant job of interpretating itself. The very foundation of truth is believing what God says about Himself and about other things.

I have deleted the last couple of posts Willie put up in this thread. Both were very nasty and Willie is not open to any kind of meaningful discussion on scriptures that disagree with his apostate opinions. It was pointless to post scripture for Willie to consider. For all of his insistence on posting scripture he ignored most of the ones I cited for him. There is a whole page of them in one of my posts and he failed to address any of them. Neither does he have an answer for the depictions of hell given by Christ except to say it isn`t important.

In another post I addressed his issue with word meanings and he ignored that as well. Willie isn`t interested in an honest discussion or an honest debate about his views.

[John B]

Hi WillieH,
I am not going to enter the debate at this point. But a technical point - your posts are impossible to read because of the light colours you put key words and phrases in. If you want people to read your offerings then make them visible and don't play around with colours to be clever.
John B

[Remedialist]

Hello,
I enter this discussion as a professed believer in Jesus Who is Son of God and Who is the Promised Messiah of all of Scripture. I believe in basing all doctrine in the Law, the Prophets, and the Apostles, and Jesus' quoted words.

Concerning "Hell", I would begin to discuss it by saying that we need to see that mankind is a three-part being: spirit, soul, and body as mention by Paul in
1 Thessalonians 5:23
"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Also key to the discussion would be the concept that God is the Father of spirits, including every spirit being {angels, fallen angels, the incarnate spirit in each human}. This has a reference in Hebrews 12:9
"Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?"

I would go into Hebrews 12 rather heavily as a start for beginning to understand the ways of our Father in using incentives and corrective measures for training up His children in the Way they should go.

Lord willing, we may be having a discussion of these things. I am sure I do not know it all ... by a long shot. And I will love to benefit from fellowship with other members of His body through this discussion forum.

Timotheus Wood, of http://remedialist.blogspot.com/

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Remedialist

Hello,
I enter this discussion as a professed believer in Jesus Who is Son of God and Who is the Promised Messiah of all of Scripture. I believe in basing all doctrine in the Law, the Prophets, and the Apostles, and Jesus' quoted words.

Concerning "Hell", I would begin to discuss it by saying that we need to see that mankind is a three-part being: spirit, soul, and body as mention by Paul in
1 Thessalonians 5:23
"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Also key to the discussion would be the concept that God is the Father of spirits, including every spirit being {angels, fallen angels, the incarnate spirit in each human}. This has a reference in Hebrews 12:9
"Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?"

I would go into Hebrews 12 rather heavily as a start for beginning to understand the ways of our Father in using incentives and corrective measures for training up His children in the Way they should go.

Lord willing, we may be having a discussion of these things. I am sure I do not know it all ... by a long shot. And I will love to benefit from fellowship with other members of His body through this discussion forum.

Timotheus Wood, of http://remedialist.blogspot.com/

Discussion is fine. And members are welcome to post blogs. But promoting other web sites that we do not share links is not.

We have a forum for links that we favor and other forums are not supposed to have unapproved links posted in them.

I have been pretty lax in enforcing the no spam policy of the site but it is pretty thin ice when someone with an adverse opinion wants to spam our site.

This was the undoing of your predecessers Willie and Rodgettutte. And those two fellows used up most of my patience with spam.

[dattaswami2]

Originally Posted by willieH

willieH: Hello to all...

HELL...

1. There IS, ...No such place. (it is untruthful news)

2. It IS, ...the doctrine of Fear, (there is no Fear in LOVE)

3. It IS, ...NOT part of the Gospel (which is GOOD news / GLAD tidings)

3. It IS, ...a false teaching based upon mistranslation and FEAR, which poses GOD to be an INFINITE Hitler. (blaspheming news)

Whatcha think?

peaCe... willieH

Hell, Heaven and Kingdom Of Lord


This universe is infinite. I am unable to show the existence of these super worlds to you. I accept my incapability. But you are also incapable to prove directly the non-existence of these super worlds. Have you taken all over the universe and said, " Here ends the universe. Beyond this point there is no universe. This is the compound wall of the space. Your super world does not exist anywhere’’. Therefore, there is equal chance for the existence and non-existence of the super worlds according to the theory of probability.

Now let us analyse of our cases. Both of us are eating to live. The basic needs are satisfied in the cases of both of us. You have spent extra time also in earning more money, which may give you some problems of health like sugar, B.P etc., due to over enjoying. I have not earned more money and I am healthy due to normal food. None of us will carry the money with us after death. The money given to the children may also be lost in several ways. Therefore, I do not find much difference between us, once the basic needs are satisfied. I am poor because I have spent my extra time in the service of God.

Suppose after my death, you are correct and there are no super worlds. In such case what I have lost? There is no loss for me. But after your death, suppose I am correct and there are super worlds. You have lost every thing and God will not save you. Thus, even on accepting your argument, based on the equal probability, it is better to serve the Lord by sacrificing the extra time and energy for the Lord after earning the basic needs. You must read the theory of probability, which is perfectly a scientific theory.