Hell?

[willieH]

willieH: Hello to all...

HELL...

1. There IS, ...No such place. (it is untruthful news)

2. It IS, ...the doctrine of Fear, (there is no Fear in LOVE)

3. It IS, ...NOT part of the Gospel (which is GOOD news / GLAD tidings)

3. It IS, ...a false teaching based upon mistranslation and FEAR, which poses GOD to be an INFINITE Hitler. (blaspheming news)

Whatcha think?

peaCe... willieH

[Rick]

The Bible talks about hell in a number of places. To say that there is no such place and that hell is a false doctrine is contrary to what is proclaimed in scripture.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Rick!

Originally Posted by Rick

The Bible talks about hell in a number of places. To say that there is no such place and that hell is a false doctrine is contrary to what is proclaimed in scripture.

Actually "HELL" is one of my most studied subjects... and part of my personal mission is to inform those UNINFORMED as to the roots of this mythical "place"...

I therefore, beg to differ brother... there is no such place as HELL, however, there are 4 words in Scripture which are MISTRANSTLATED to the English word HELL which, when the KJV was put together (it is actually a combination of translation and comparisons) actually meant a place which is UNSEEN. The "HEL" was commonly referred to in the 1600's as a cellar where WINE and VEGETABLES such as POTATOES and other ROOT foods were stored for PRESERVATION...

This olde English term is the root for such modern English words as HELmet & HALLway... both noting things which are UNSEEN...

There are 4 words which are translated HELL in Scripture, they are...

SHEOL - Hebrew word translated 31 times as HELL and 31 times as GRAVE... which is it?

HADES - Greek word translated 10 times as HELL and 1 time as GRAVE... which is it?



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Sidenote 1: In the Septuagint (greek translation of the entire Bible), the words SHEOL and HADES are interchangeable, as in each appearance where the Hebrew word SHEOL is translated it is noted as HADES.

Sidenote 2: Paul uses the word HADES but once in his writings. That use is found in 1 Cor 15:55... where HADES is translated GRAVE... and in that verse it states that HADES ...GETS NO VICTORY! So whether it is translated GRAVE or HELL, bottom line is, ...it GETS NO VICTORY...

Sidenote 3: It is interesting that 2 of the most prolific writers of NT Scripture chose not to teach of HELL (Paul & John)...

The word and teaching of HELL is also absent in the book of ACTS which is the early report of the GOSPEL being spread, and makes no appearance in JUDE either...

In the 26 books of the NT, "HELL" (in any form) only appears in 8 of those books... hmmm... that means 18 books were written without even MENTIONING it, let alone warn or teach of it! hmmm... guess it wasn't worth mentioning - eh?

Sidenote 4: Adam and Eve were neither informed nor warned of such a place... matter of fact, the word "SHEOL" did not appear until Gen 37:35 much had occured prior to this... including the FLOOD, Sodom & Gomorrah, etc...



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On to the remaining words translated HELL:

GEHENNA - Greek word actually meaning Valley of the Sons of Hinnom... an ACTUAL VALLEY just outside Jerusalem... which was a pit where garbage was burned, how did it become a SPIRITUAL place called HELL?

It only appears in 3 of the 4 GOSPELS (not mentioned at all in John), and only once more, in the book of JAMES... why?

JESUS ...in over 1200 days of ministry only mentioned Gehenna on 4 occasions! Why? And James, only once... only 5 times... in ALL the NT...

TARTARUS - Greek word appearing 1 time in the NT, which actually means the deepest portion of HADES... so it is still essentially HADES.


There is much more to say concerning this awful (mythical) place that bears no logical root in LOVE, but for the moment, I'll leave this post with you and comment further tomorrow if no one else has by then...

peAce... willieH

[Cheryl Fisher]

Where does the devil and his angels spend eternity? In the lake of fire. If you have followed the devil, you spend eternity as part of his body. You go where his body goes. If he is your head, then you are part of his body. God did not make it for us, but for the devil and his angels. If you happen to love them more than God, you simply spend eternity with them. Your choice, not God's choice.

God bless. Cheryl

[Rick]

I would agree that hell is a grave. The Bible says it is a bottomless pit in fact. Calling hell the grave is fine by me but it really does nothing to change what the Bible says the grave is like.

What do you think about what Jesus said about the place?

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Cheryl...

Though you shall in all likelihood oppose what I say, nevertheless...

I'd like to comment on a few things you state below. Please know that I mean no offense to you or any church you may be affiliated with!

Originally Posted by Cheryl Fisher

Where does the devil and his angels spend eternity? In the lake of fire.

First, ...might I say that "HELL" is NOT the "Lake of Fire"... Why ...you ask? Glad you asked!

Well, HADES (supposedly "HELL") is cast INTO the "Lake of Fire"... which means that it is OUTSIDE of the "Lake of Fire" to begin with eh? Futhermore, one cannot CAST something INTO ITSELF... (Rev 20:14)

Second, ..."spend Eternity"... is a finite observation of an INFINITE state. We cannot, in this FINITE lifetime... observe the ETERNAL state in which our Creator IS...

To propose that any entity (including satan and its angels/messengers - which are what "angels" are) will "spend eternity", ...implies a DURATION (which is eternal/INFINITE)... that is in fact, not available for us to observe (which are temporal/FINITE)...

Third, ...anything which IS in an ETERNAL state, has no beginning or end... so, if any entity were to "be" IN HELL eternally, it means they ALWAYS WERE, ...ARE, and ...ALWAYS WILL BE, in HELL... this is obviously NOT TRUE for that would mean that all IN this LIFETIME which are "HELL-dwellers" are IN HELL now...

Originally Posted by Cheryl Fisher

If you have followed the devil, you spend eternity as part of his body. You go where his body goes. If he is your head, then you are part of his body. God did not make it for us, but for the devil and his angels. If you happen to love them more than God, you simply spend eternity with them. Your choice, not God's choice.

Again Cheryl... you note the word "spend eternity"... as I said this is a INFINITE observation, that cannot be rightly applied by a FINITE observer... Something like a BLIND MAN which has never had sight, trying to explain or define, COLOR...

I'd like to separately address 2 things you mention above, "satan" and the "Lake of Fire"




SATAN:


You mention above that "satan" (the devil) has a "BODY"... upon what do you base this, Biblically?

The concept of what "satan" actually is, is pivitol to understanding ITS place in Scripture, and identifying IT...

What I am saying is, ...CHRIST addressed the Apostle PETER as SATAN... do you believe Peter shall be in the "Lake of Fire" for ETERNITY? After all, JESUS did not lie at any time (His WORDS are TRUTH)... and He DEFINITELY named Peter as "SATAN" (Matt 16:23 / Luke 4:8)

We must define what "satan" is...

Actually, the word "satan" is a Hebrew word (#H7853 & H7854 - Strongs Exhaustive Concordance) which means ADVERSARY or ADVERSITY - Resist.

Peter spoke words which were ADVERSE/resisting to the mission of CHRIST and thereby stood in ADVERSITY/resistance to that mission... and was accordingly addressed so by the Savior.

What I say next shall surely go against ALL you have been taught:

"satan" is a principality, not a being... If satan were a being, he would be OMNIPRESENT for ALL human beings deal with satan... sorry, I don't buy it... Only GOD is OMNIPRESENT...

"satan" is the power or principality of Adversity which ALL men have within their makeup. Beginning with Adam & Eve... GOD gave command to them, and in their hearts they held the power to do other than that command (adversity)... which they BOTH DID...

ALL "sin" manifests the same way for EVERYONE:

(James 1:14) But EVERY MAN is TEMPTED when he [she] is DRAWN AWAY, ...of HIS [her] OWN LUST [desire], and enticed...

AWAY from what? AWAY from the COMMAND of GOD, which is the act of ADVERSITY (satan)... GOD reverses this eventually by DRAWING us back to CHRIST (John 6:44)




The LAKE of FIRE:


What IS the "Lake of Fire"? It is assumed in most "Christian theological circles" to be HELL ...worded otherwise... I disagree with this, as I mentioned above that HADES is CAST INTO the Lake of Fire... so HADES (whatever it is) PRIOR to it being "cast into" is OUTSIDE of the Lake of Fire, and therefore is NOT the Lake of Fire...

If the Lake of Fire is NOT, HELL... what is it? Glad you asked!

Whatever HADES is, ...it is cast into the Lake of Fire... along with DEATH...

To communicate my view of this, I reiterate, that the actual meaning of HADES (as I said previously), is GRAVE or World of the UNSEEN.

DEATH and the GRAVE... were CAST into THIS LIFETIME. They are partners which cooperate in the manifestation of the LOSS (imprisonment) of LIFE.

JESUS CHRIST ...DIED... and ROSE again to LIFE, and has the KEYS (Salvation/resurrection) to unlock the imprisonment of DEATH and the GRAVE. (Rev 1:18)

CHRIST... counsels us to buy (obtain) of Him, GOLD which was TRIED ...IN FIRE... (Rev 3:18) Those (His) "TRIALS" took place in THIS LIFETIME...

Once this LIFETIME is completely consumed for ALL... PAIN, SORROW, TEARS, and most of all DEATH shall CEASE to BE, for they will have PASSED AWAY... (Rev 21:4)

PAIN, SORROW, TEARS and DEATH are ALL parts of THIS LIFETIME... they mark the pathway of SUFFERING which contains MAJESTY and PERFECTION (Heb 2:9-10) for it is the pathway in which CHRIST walked...

ALL are eventually BLOTTED OUT of the book of LIFE, for it is appointed unto MAN, once to DIE. (Heb 9:27)

CHRIST, in His ALL encompassing sacrifice took away ALL SIN (John 1:29 / 2 Cor 5:19)... once FOR ALL (Heb 2:9)... and thereby writing ALL NAMES (of ALL those blotted from the book of LIFE -- by our individual DEATHS) into the BOOK of HIS LIFE...


peacE... willieH

[willieH]

willieH: Hi brother R!

Originally Posted by Rick

I would agree that hell is a grave. The Bible says it is a bottomless pit in fact. Calling hell the grave is fine by me but it really does nothing to change what the Bible says the grave is like.

Here is what the BIBLE says, the GRAVE is "like" bro:

(Ecc 9:5-6)

5 For the LIVING ...KNOW... that they shall DIE, but the DEAD [those in the GRAVE], ...KNOW NOT ANYTHING. Neither have they any more reward; for the memory of them is FORGOTTEN.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is NOW PERISHED, neither have they ANY MORE a portion for ever under the sun.

There is no CONSCIOUSNESS in the GRAVE brother... and THAT is what the GRAVE is "LIKE"...

DEATH is the state of NON-EXPERIENCE, it is NOT the state of LIFE which is CONSCIOUS (knowing) and LIVING (feeling/observing)... which is what "EXPERIENCE" entails...

Originally Posted by Rick

What do you think about what Jesus said about the place?

Please be specific bro... and i'll be happy to reply...

peacE... willieH

[Rick]

Hmmm....... well there are a couple of commentaries on the subject of hell in the theology group. Come join it Willie and take a look at them


Got any thoughts on the lake of fire the book of revelation talks about?

[WiseOne]

Oh I HAVE to reply to this!

It is known what HELL is:

Simply put:

HELL is the absence from God FOREVER with no way back to God and NO hope.

Whether it is ACTUAL fire or whatever, I DOUBT...I think this is meant FIGURATIVELY. By this I mean that being absent from God forever and ever would be LIKE being in a lake of fire (a way for man to relate to the feeling which we know not as of yet...as we DO still have hope right now...)

We ALL know hateful people in this world, and I mean TRULY hateful, evil people...imagine being STUCK with them FOREVER with no way to reach to God and get out...that truly would be HELL to me. This world is ALREADY HELL, but at least we have faith (hope) and DO have a way to God through his son, Jesus! Do you want to be with Hitler, Stalin, and the rest of them FOREVER? Not me! I am in utter MISERY in this world...I cannot imagine what having no access to God (hope) would be like! It would be like HELL!

[willieH]

willieH: Hi WiseOne...

Nicetameetya!

As I have said previously, I mean no offense to you or any church you might be affiliated with bro (sis?)...

It is my intention to give you a different perspective, and compare what you have been taught, to what is in Scripture...

(btw, I am a recovering "HELL" believer for 25yrs, and have intensely studied this subject for the last 8yrs, coming to the conclusion from that study, that "HELL" is a religious and Babylonian -- FEAR tactic which [fear] is an element ABSENT in GOD LOVE [1 John 4:18]

Furthermore, it's teaching is completely ILLOGICAL, posing an INFINITE being [GOD] to mercilessly punish INFINITELY, ...finite beings [whom GOD LOVES -- John 3:16-17] - for finite "crimes" against Him...

Originally Posted by WiseOne

Oh I HAVE to reply to this!

It is known what HELL is:

Simply put:

HELL is the absence from God FOREVER with no way back to God and NO hope.

You say in this above, that "it is KNOWN, what HELL ...IS"

Says WHO WiseOne?

Then you say that "HELL is the ABSENCE from GOD FOREVER with NO WAY BACK to God and no hope"

1. Where is this "stated" in the Bible, WiseOne?

2. If you produce no Biblical verse to support this statement, then, ....what ESTABLISHES it to be "KNOWN"?

Originally Posted by WiseOne

Whether it is ACTUAL fire or whatever, I DOUBT...I think this is meant FIGURATIVELY. By this I mean that being absent from God forever and ever would be LIKE being in a lake of fire (a way for man to relate to the feeling which we know not as of yet...as we DO still have hope right now...)

Sorry to again disagree with your theory my new friend... but, how do YOU KNOW what it would be LIKE to be ABSENT from GOD? And that this ABSENT experience would be "LIKE" a "Lake of Fire"?

Paul says this in Acts 17:28...

28 for IN HIM, we live and move and have our BEING...

This statement says that things that "BE" are IN GOD... How can anything exist or "BE" ...OUTSIDE of Him? And WHERE in the WORD, does it say they DO?

No offense to you my new friend... I would rather you might learn than offend you, really... I mean this with all loving sincerity.

These things you state above are that which is fed to the Christian church/community in just about all branches of it... yet are UNFOUNDED in the WORD of GOD...

Originally Posted by WiseOne

We ALL know hateful people in this world, and I mean TRULY hateful, evil people...imagine being STUCK with them FOREVER with no way to reach to God and get out... that truly would be HELL to me.

I would like to say first, that this analogy is made by comparison of yourself to these "evil/hateful" people is it not? It is often NATURAL for us to observe a "rapist" or "murderer", having NOT committed such crimes ourselves, and thereby deduce them EVIL...

Is it not our heart to be in alignment with GOD, trusting Him that ALL are in His hands? Rather than being "STUCK" with those which appear undesireable, should we not be about LOVING them and PRAYING for them? As opposed to wishing them away to some horrible place called HELL? Just so WE might be comfortably rid of their misdeeds from our proximity? How SELFISH is that?

What if JESUS had looked upon ALL SINNERS with this viewpoint? Did He not take YOUR SINS to His cross?

Here is how JESUS looked at Hitler & Stalin, WiseOne:

A woman was brought to CHRIST which had been CAUGHT in the ACT of committing ADULTERY, and by the LAW, her DEATH was demanded wasn't it? What was JESUS' reaction to this? Let's take a look:

(John 8:3-11)

3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto Him a woman taken in adultery, and when they had set her in the midst,
4 they say unto Him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act,
5 now Moses in the LAW commanded us, that such should be stoned; but WHAT SAYEST THOU?
6 This they said, tempting Him, that they might have to accuse Him. But JESUS stooped down, and with His finger wrote on the ground,
7 so when they continued asking Him, he lifted up Himself, and said unto them, "He that is WITHOUT SIN among you, ...cast the first stone at her"
8 and again, He stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9 and they which heard, being convicted by conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest unto the last; and JESUS was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10 when JESUS had lifted up Himself, and saw none but the woman, He said unto her, "woman, where are thine ACCUSERS? Hath no MAN condemned thee?"
11 She said, no MAN Lord. And JESUS said unto her "Neither do I CONDEMN thee, go and sin no more.

JESUS in this example, (1) set a standard of DIVINE SPIRITUAL FORGIVENESS, as well as (2) dictating that no MAN in GOOD CONSCIENCE has any RIGHT whatsoever, to JUDGE another.

What does JESUS say we are to do with "such people" as you mention above, WiseOne?

(Matt 5:44-46 / Luke 6:28)

44 But I say unto you, LOVE your enemies, BLESS them that curse you, do GOOD to them that hate you, and PRAY for them which despitefully USE you, and PERSECUTE you...
45 that ye may be the Children of YOUR FATHER, which is in Heaven; for He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye LOVE them which LOVE YOU, what reward have ye? do not even PUBLICANS the same?

Originally Posted by WiseOne

This world is ALREADY HELL, but at least we have faith (hope) and DO have a way to God through his son, Jesus! Do you want to be with Hitler, Stalin, and the rest of them FOREVER? Not me! I am in utter MISERY in this world...I cannot imagine what having no access to God (hope) would be like! It would be like HELL!

You note Hitler and Stalin... and in that notation, do you imply that YOU are more forgiveable in some way, than are they?

Before YOU recieved your FORGIVENESS of GOD WiseOne, ...were you WORTHY of that FORGIVENSS? Were your "sins" not the cause (in part) of CHRIST going to the Cross?

Do you not, by noting Hitler and Stalin, infer YOU to be a better candidate for SALVATION than are they? On the basis of WHAT? What have you or I "done" that makes us DESERVING of DIVINE FORGIVENESS WiseOne?

I can speak for myself... I DESERVE DEATH... but fortunately for me, ...CHRIST loves the UNLOVEABLE... how about YOU?

This life is HARDLY "HELL" my friend... if we call it such, we are condemning the Creator which PUT US HERE!

This life is a CLASSROOM... displaying the difference between WHO GOD IS... and WHO HE ...IS NOT!

GOD is LOVE... EVIL is the demonstration of the ADVERSITY to LOVE...

EVIL demands VENGENCE... (see John 8:3-11 above)

LOVE demands FORGIVENESS...

The violations of MORAL LAW demonstrate an ANTITHETICAL approach to it...

MORAL LAW demonstrates by its practice and/or involvement, ...LOVE...

If I LOVE my neighbor, I will not STEAL from him, I will not KILL him, I will not COVET what is his, etc... If I LOVE GOD, I will not hold anything ABOVE Him, I will not worship anything BEFORE Him, etc...

If we LOVE as does GOD... (SPIRITUALLY) then our neighbor which we are able to see and interact with, becomes the object of LOVE and FORGIVENESS, not the object of JUDGMENT and VENGENCE...

I sincerely wish you,

PeacE... willieH