FREE WILL... do you have it?

[rodger]

My comments*

Quote:
Choose from what, Good or evil. Aren’t we living in the age of choice? A choice for what? To be obedient to the law of God or not, to receive the gift of Holy Spirit or decline, to live in light or darkness, Material or in material, to be have self control or self controlled.
To live by Gods law externally or internally, to be circumcised externally or internally?

( You show that you do not understand what the choice is. The choice is between serving God or serving sin. Everyone chooses one or the other.)


*God is only Good, So by choosing good you are choosing god will And evil opposes god's will which is Sin, For this is our free will to choose Good or Evil, so how is it that I don't understand choice?

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Rodger...

Originally Posted by rodger

Do we not reason with God by the Holy Spirit through Christ by Choice of our own? Do we not choose to confess our sins? 1 John 1; 9 If we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleans us of our unrighteousness

No we do not "choose" to confess our sins... The HOLY SPIRIT brings our sin to our attention, and we confess the TRUTH that we have sinned, ...by that PROMPTING...

If the HOLY SPIRIT did not CONVICT, we would NOT CONFESS... therefore, our "confession" is accomplished by HIM, ...IN US... not by US...

If it were as you believe it to be... you would be able to GLORY before GOD, as it was YOUR IDEA to CONFESS, and YOUR RECOGNITION of your SIN that caused that CONFESSION...

What is our conscious and what is our subconscious?

That we are CONSCIOUS (or subconscious) has nothing to do with ORIGINATING ...ACTS... of HOLINESS...

For I choose not to do for what I want to do. The spirit is willing and the flesh is week.

What makes you aware of that "weakness" bro? It is GOD which makes you aware... and it is GOD who inspires you to do OTHERWISE...

I will give you some insight, Repentance leads to salvation this is the reason Christ was incarnated in the flesh, and if you don't repent you will not receive the Holy Spirit for salvation.

You are hardly giving me INSIGHT, brother Rodger... I have been studying the WORD for over 32 years...

REPENTENCE is OF GOD:

(John 6:44) no man ...CAN... come to Me, EXCEPT the Father which SENT ME, ...DRAW him to ME...

The POTTER is MAKING the CLAY, not the reverse... the CLAY is powerless of itself.

(Rom 9:21) Hath not the POTTER power OVER the CLAY, of the SAME LUMP, to make ONE VESSEL of HONOR and ANOTHER unto DISHONOR?

(Jer 18:4) And the VESSEL He made of CLAY was MARRED IN the HAND of the POTTER.. so He made it AGAIN ANOTHER VESSEL as seemed GOOD to the POTTER to MAKE.

The CLAY does not MAKE itself ANYTHING... the POTTER MAKES the CLAY according to HIS PURPOSE...

As I said choice is free will. For we need to be trusted by God to enter into his kingdom.

More UNSCRIPTURAL hoo-ha! You DID say CHOICE is FREE WILL, ...however, YOU are NOT the one which determines this to be FACT or FICTION... the above verses SPEAK AGAINST you... and YOU have provided NO VERSES to support your assertion of "FREE WILL"... (which is an UNBIBLICAL teaching)

By all means what you say is correct, but only when one has received salvation.
By self-choice of repenting, yelding to the grace of God through Christ by faith to receive the holy spirit which the first Adam lost through deception.

SALVATION is NOT dependent upon YOUR SELF CHOICE to recieve it... if this is SO... then YOU are your own SAVIOR... for according to you, SALVATION is in the end, ...determined by YOUR SELF CHOICE...

CHRIST is REVEALED to us, via the PROMPTING and DRAWING of YHVH God (John 6:65 & 44)... when that REVELATION takes place... The WORD brings you to repentence, ...followed by the CONFESSION of CHRIST, done BY the HOLY SPIRIT (1 Cor 12:3)

I believe experience leads to knowledge as a designer of prototypes myself, the crumbs lead to the loaf, I don't believe knowing the loaf leads to the crumbs.

You DON'T? Please Rodger... there cannot even BE "crumbs" unless the LOAF ...IS...

The LOAF's presence brings forth the possibility of "CRUMBS"... without the LOAF there are NO "CRUMBS"...

Is it fair to take the crumbs away from the young? But one day the young will come to choice of there own loaf or God’s.

Don't really know what this "loaf & crumb" thing really is, however:

Again, you make MAN's establishment IN GOD, to be OF MAN... I cannot believe you do not see this...

You ILLOGICALLY note that "CRUMBS" lead to the "LOAF", and frost the cake with MAN leads to GOD... instead of GOD leading MAN to HIMSELF which I have already noted in John 6:65 and John 6:44 and try on Col 1:20 for size, while you're at it!

Do Angels know Good and evil (YES) God Said" now man has come to be like US knowing good and Evil.

C'mon Rodger... we are not made in the IMAGE of ANGELS... we are made in the IMAGE of YHVH GOD and HIS WORD, ...JESUS CHRIST...

NOT ANGELS! Please!

You also have failed to NOTE where in Scripture is states that ANGELS have "choice"

When we become angles we have experenced the crumbs which makes our own loaf and will remember everything from good and evil pain, Sorrow love, Deception, lies, theft, slander, hate death,
self image we will never forget it. ….. Thats why God Created us on Earth , to over come these temptations, Then we will live by Meaning reconciliation creation forever.

We are not to become "ANGELS" Rodger... what Bible are you reading? If it so states this, let us have the quotation from it...

Revelation 3 ;21The lord said"As for the one who overcomes the world I will grant him to sit beside me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down besides My Father on his throne.

Finally you quote the Word, ...GOOD for you Rodger, GOOD for you!

I am so happy to finally see you (at least to attempt to), use your Bible... the one who OVERCOMES the WORLD is JESUS CHRIST, Not YOU and NOT ME... He OVERCOMES ...IN US... we do not and CANNOT, OVERCOME of ourselves...

You, as have many, been fed doctrinal fallacies which do NOT appear in the Word... and have named several in this post such as: (1) WE OVERCOME of OURSELVES (2) We are made in the image of ANGELS (3) We are to BECOME Angels...

Why was mankind created on earth by God as living Souls? And not as spiritual beings? Is it because of the harvest, why a harvest? Some will be saved and some will be lost, Two will stand in the field and one will be taken which one will be taken and which one will stay?
Are the saved chosen by God or did the saved (choose) God will?

Rodger... Two will stand in the field (earth) one will be taken (The Spirit PORTION of your being)... one will be LEFT (the FLESH PORTION of your being)...

MAN ...is... The TEMPLE of the HOLY SPIRIT... the BODY of CHRIST in which the HOLY SPIRIT ...dwells, bro!

GOD is giving HIS TEMPLE/BODY, the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... which only HE and HIS WORD (heart) previously had...

It is the destiny of ALL MEN, to be components of HIMSELF Rodger... (1 Cor 15:28 / 1 Cor 12:6) GOD, upon the FULLNESS of TIME (Eph 1:10) shall be ALL in ALL...

That means that NO PART of His Children shall not be YHVH and no part of YHVH shall not be His Children...

As CHRIST noted...

(Rev 3:20) to him that OVERCOMETH will I grant to sit WITH ME in My throne, even as I OVERCAME, and AM set down WITH MY FATHER, in HIS throne...

(John 16:33) ...be of GOOD CHEER, for ...I... have OVERCOME, the WORLD...

It is via the POWER of CHRIST that we "overcome" Rodger... not by our own... and it is HE that is to get the GLORY for it brother... and RIGHTLY so...

[quote]
Have you come to know the seven principles of God through the Holy Spirit, if so tell me?

Why? Don't you know them?

And what are the seven opposing principles of the devil?

Religious hoo-ha... If you have something to say, then SAY IT... instead of playing "hide & seek" with me...

If you believe you have something to teach Rodger, then pull out your BIBLE and show me these (if indeed they are IN the Bible)... then we might discuss them...

This convo is about FREE WILL... lets hear what you have to say about it... If you believe these "7 principles" of GOD to exist...

NOTE THEM... that is, if they pertain to "FREE WILL"... if not, then start a thread about them, and teach them, if in fact you are able to do so...

In spirit and truth

Hmm... use the Bible to prove yourself and your points, and then maybe that will mean something...

The SPIRIT is the WORD, and the TRUTH is IN IT! Not in your "opinions"...

God bless

God bless who Rodger? I you wish His blessing upon me, then come out and say so... and leave the modern and inadaquate "worldly" blessings out...

Worldly: I love you
Worldly: Me too!

Christian: I love you.
Christian: I love you TOO.

Worldly: God bless
Worldly: Me too!

Christian: God bless YOU
Christian: God bless YOU TOO!


pEAce... willieH

[rodger]

I seek knock and ask for my daily food bro, The word is inside of me not on outside of me, The spirit is contrary to the flesh bro, how can the flesh be God temple it is only matter. And it doesn't matter to me how long you have being reading for or how you interpret the meaning of words. thats your believe bro not mine bro. This is sounding like a constuction site bro.
If you would of told me the seven principles of God and the opposing principles of the devil then I would have listened to you bro.
But ask nock and seek and you will know them like I have bro. There is only one Teacher bro but if you believe in yourself be it. I eat solid food I don't drink milk, anymore bro, We will be like angles, ask the lord for he told us so, I will give you a tip bro Seven brothers had the same wife.

God bless

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Rick...

Originally Posted by Rick

My comments in ( )

willieH: More Scriptureless commentary from you with no basis in the Word...

RICK: [1] Everything I have posted is based in scripture. [2] The problem for you is that you don`t believe what scripture tells you and you think you are able to make your own interpretation of what it says.)

[1] Yeah right! You have NOT supported that it is based in Scripture, you just say it is... Your "word" is the word of a man... I put no trust in men... only in the WORD... until you support your arguements with SCRIPTURAL support (as I continually do)... your words are just YOUR WORDS... NOTHING more...

[2] Ya-know Rick... you are at times, funnier than a stand-up comic!

What I don't believe, is what SCRIPTURE tells YOU, ...I have no problem with what it SAYS... and use it often to display what I believe... (unlike yourself)

Such as:

1 Tim 4:10-11 For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the Living God, who ...IS... the SAVIOR of ALL MEN, ...ESPECIALLY those that BELIEVE ...THESE THINGS, ...command and TEACH



Do YOU teach this RICK?

No, of course you don't... Why?

Because your RELIGION believes other than, what SCRIPTURE SAYS...

YOU and your RELIGION, in order to maintain that RELIGION, ... pervert these verses to SAY other than what they SAY...

willieH: There is no Scriptural basis for "CONTEXT" as you require it...

RICK: Sure there is. The Bible calls it rightly dividing the word of truth.

That does not state CONTEXT Rick!

It is translated RIGHTLY DIVIDING... The Greek word actually means to DISSECT or EXPOUND (Orthotomeo -- #G3718 - Strongs) This verse, nor the word "DIVIDING", does not even touch on MAN'S Theological "CONTEXTUAL" requirement...

This verse (guess I must note it since you again have failed to do so -- 2 Tim 2:15) simply notes that one must USE the SCRIPTURES without ADDING or TAKING away from them, or PERVERTING them, as YOU often do... such as with 1 Tim 4:10-11 or John 3:17 in your endeavor to make Salvation EXCLUSIVE, and CHRIST's mission to be IN PART, ...CONDEMNATION... (HELL)

CHRIST is the SAME, yesterday, today and forever (Heb 13:8) He WAS NOT SENT to CONDEMN, IS NOT SENT to CONDEMN, nor ever WILL BE SENT to CONDEMN... the WORLD that GOD SO LOVES...

willieH: And "FREE WILL" is an UNSCRIPTURAL doctrine, which is why you do not name a basis for it...

(

RICK:
There are many scriptures that pertain to freewill. So it is entirely scriptural. Do you think there is unrighteousness with God? Apparantly you do since you believe everything everyone does is God`s will. I could fill this page with verses that show freewill. But I will name just one and one verse is all that`s needed. )

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Wow Rick! I was beginning to wonder if you even had a Bible! Good for you... good for you dude! Even though this verse does not in any way PROVE "FREE WILL"... it was a nice try...

This verse mentions CHOICE... nothing is said of FREE WILL... "CHOICE" is NOT "FREE WILL"... as I said previously and you have willingly ignored:

DOGS and CATS "choose", ...computers "choose"... a MONKEY can "choose" for cryin' out loud, ...I suppose that YOU THINK a monkey has FREE WILL - eh Rick?

FREE WILL is a WILL which is FREE of any outside INFLUENCE that has any part in the resulting determination of its CHOICE...

Only GOD has a WILL which is FREE and it is HIS WILL ONLY, which shall inhabit ETERNITY...

If your WILL was FREE, it would continue into the ETERNAL realm, ...however, ...it "WILL" NOT!

MAN is enslaved to HIS own WILL which is IN BONDAGE to itSELF, and which produces ADVERSITY, SIN and eventually DEATH...

GOD's WILL is FREE, and produces LOVE, HARMONY and LIFE...

willieH: btw...JESUS spoke nothing but TRUTH while here on earth...

RICK: If you believe that then why don`t you believe what He says?

I absolutely BELIEVE in what HE SAYS... I just don't BELIEVE in what YOU SAY ...that HE SAYS!

As I noted in the Scripture above... Elsewhere the Scripture SAYS the SAME THING:

(1 John 2:2) And He is the PROPITIATION [substitute] for OUR SINS, and ...NOT for OURS ONLY... but also for the SINS of the WHOLE WORLD...

This SAYS what it SAYS Rick... Do YOU teach this? Of course you don't, because your RELIGION believes OTHER than what IT SAYS... you would rather teach the WORLD to be FOREVER UNFORGIVEN... in a GOD- FORSAKEN, and UNMERCIFUL, ...HELL

And SAYS again here:

(2 Cor 5:18-19) And ALL THINGS are OF GOD, who HATH RECONCILED us to Himself by JESUS CHRIST and hath GIVEN US, the MINISTRY of RECONCILIATION... to wit, that GOD was IN CHRIST, RECONCILING the WORLD unto Himself, NOT IMPUTING their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the WORD of RECONCILATION...

And HERE: (Rom 5:18-20) GOD justifies
And HERE: (Col 1:20) ALL THINGS
And HERE: (John 12:32) DRAWS ALL
And HERE: (1 Tim 2:3-6) ALL MEN
And HERE: (1 Cor 3:12-15) SAVED by FIRE
And HERE: (1 John 2:2) The WORLD
And HERE: (Luke 19:10) ALL are LOST

Do YOU believe any of this RICK? Do YOU believe it SAYS what it SAYS?

Of course you don't... because YOUR RELIGION doesn't... You IGNORE that IT SAYS what IT SAYS... and teach that the greater portion of the WORLD which GOD SO LOVES, ...is going to HELL...

willieH: Sin is "proof" we have choice and the ability to DISOBEY which is ADVERSITY...

RICK: Then [1] you acknowledge freewill after all. You ever read what scripture says about a [2] doubleminded man?

Please... you bark about CONTEXT then pervert what I have said!

[1] I did NOT SAY that I believe in FREE WILL, I SAID that I believe we CHOOSE... big difference...

[2] Not "doubleminded" as you ACCUSE... (the accuser of the brethren is satan)...

We CHOOSE according to the DECLARATION of GOD...

(Is 46:10) Declaring the END from the BEGINNING and from ANCIENT times that are NOT YET DONE, saying MY COUNSEL will stand, I will DO all MY pleasure:

(Pro 20:24) Man UNDERSTANDS NOT his own way
(Jer 10:23) Mans STEPS are of YHVH
(Rom 9:17-18) Man does as GOD directs
(Eph 1:11) God works ALL things after His OWN WILL not yours, and not mine!

ALL THINGS Rick... not just Some (as your RELIGION depicts)...

willieH: The ADVERSITY in MEN is satan...

RICK: It`s funny. I mention what scripture says and you fault me for not citing chapter and verse and then you turn around and make claims that do not appear in scripture like the one just above. If you really knew your Bible you would understand what I have been telling you.)

You believe everything men tell you Rick? If you have truly studied the Word, why not use it? Are you ashamed of it? Is it not the LIFE that is IN YOU?

It amazes me that you don't even recognize your own method of deception! You quote only the portion of my words which might afford you the chance to discredit me... but I DID mention basis for ADVERSITY in MEN... and for new readers (not you) I shall once more:

(Matt 16:23) But he turned and said UNTO PETER: Get thee behind Me SATAN: thou are an offence unto Me: for thou savorest NOT of the things that be OF GOD, but those that be OF MEN...

Just as ARE YOUR WORDS brother Rick... no matter HOW and to what degrees of deception that you might weakly employ in your attempt to PERVERT MINE...

CHRIST, plain & simple herecalled PETER ...SATAN...

I also asked you previously, DO YOU think PETER is SATAN? After all, CHRIST named him such... and CHRIST told TRUTH ONLY!

Well? DO-YA?

You did not reply to that... because you have no answer... and it irritates you that ...I DO have the answer!

The Answer BEING... The WORDS which came from PETER were SATAN! His words were ADVERSE to the MISSION of CHRIST... anything ADVERSE to the MISSION of CHRIST and the COMMAND of GOD...is SATAN... (that MISSION being that: HE IS the SAVIOR of the WORLD)

YOUR words fall into the category of ADVERSITY, for you TEACH NOT the GOSPEL of CHRIST which is the GOSPEL of PEACE... and the RECONCILIATION of ALL THINGS to GOD...

You teach the ADVERSITY of HELL... which in NO WAY is the GOSPEL of PEACE...

The Hebrew word SATAN means ADVERSITY or ADVERSARY...

I have already stated these things and you have willingly IGNORED them, to your future regret. I feel as if I am addressing a child... you need REPETITION, and STILL refuse to see what is before you...

You continue to post beliefs with NO SCRIPTURAL basis... asserting they do have such, continuously failing to note their "presence" in the Word...

Why? Because they are NOT there... ALL that you believe (to date) is the RELGIOUS/TRADITIONAL assumptions OF MEN, ...which you have swallowed and foolishly repeated to others, without verifying them before you speak...

peace... willieH

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Rodger...

Originally Posted by rodger

I seek knock and ask for my daily food bro, The word is inside of me not on outside of me, The spirit is contrary to the flesh bro, how can the flesh be God temple it is only matter. And it doesn't matter to me how long you have being reading for or how you interpret the meaning of words. thats your believe bro not mine bro. This is sounding like a constuction site bro.

I once asked my daughter when she was in high school, "do you know more about the Lord now, then when you were in elementary school"... She said ...MUCH MORE!

I asked her a few weeks ago (she is 31yrs old), "Do you know more about the Lord now then when you were in High School"... once again,Her answer was the same: MUCH MORE!

Point is this BRO... you are at a stage in your understanding which ...if you truly do diligently STUDY, (not just pull out your Bible once a week to follow along at church every sunday)... shall CHANGE and GROW...

CHRIST plants SEEDS of TRUTH in all of us... and the watering of the WORD in our being will produce FRUIT... If one does not DEDICATE him/herself to the WORD, they will stagnate... and never blossom into the Disciple that is of CHRIST... rather they shall be nothing but members of Potluck dinners, and merely pew warmers...

I have been about researching GOD's Word for over 32 years... and in that 32 years, had I been asked the question that I asked my daughter at various moments in that 32 years, my answer would have been THE SAME as was HERS... MUCH MORE!

If you think you have arrived at understandings which cannot GROW into greater KNOWLEDGE, and have done little research of your own... and you are decieving yourself...

You are entitled to believe as you will... If you believe you have come to understand in such a way that is COMPLETE... then you esteem yourself higher than did the Apostle PAUL... (1 Cor 13:9-12)

I search EVERY DAY, and can TESTIFY that I have LEARNED NEW THINGS each DAY... I do not believe that any Christian church, outside of the belief in CHRIST as the Savior... knows little, if any TRUTH at all...

They in general (the Christian Church as a whole), preach a tainted message which is ILLOGICAL, contrary to LOVE, and knows NOTHING of SPIRITUAL GRACE and how it works in humanity...

They know the most important thing that is KNOWN that being CHRIST is our Savior, ...but outside of that, they pretty much teach the doctrines of BABYLON... very FEW shall find their way OUT of this entity... Even though GOD calls them to come OUT of IT (Rev 18:4)

Do they hear? NO... unfortunately they do not... but it is GOD's WILL that they do not...

One cannot come OUT of something that one is NOT IN... They are IN... MOST won't come OUT... for they have NOT the EARS to HEAR... and resultingly they STAY amidst a system which shall suffer the JUDGMENT of GOD...

The JUDGMENT of GOD is a LEARNING entity... (Is 26:9) not a sorrowful one, ...but it DOES contain SPIRITUAL SHAME... and shall not be a FUN activity...

I wish you the best...

If you would of told me the seven principles of God and the opposing principles of the devil then I would have listened to you bro.

If you had named them, then I ...might have listened to you... for you would have shown yourself forthright, instead of playing RELIGIOUS games...

I want NOTHING to do with your RELIGION... there is NOT a list of these in Scripture... it is a list compiled by RELIGION and possibly THEOLOGIANS... maybe even YOU. But since you have not been forthright, then as far as I am concerned, you have even discredited yourself as a student... playing games instead of sharing...

SHARING is the greatest thing we might do in discussing the BIBLE... you have made a childs game of it...

But ask nock and seek and you will know them like I have bro. There is only one Teacher bro but if you believe in yourself be it.

All teaching of TRUTH originates from ONE SOURCE, that being the Holy Spirit of God... but there are MANY teachers which KNOW those TRUTHS and DO share them with others...

It is of the GIFTS of the Spirit concerning the GOVERNING and Instruction and edification of GOD's Church Rodger... do you have a bible? The THIRD following Apostles and Prophets (1 Cor 12:28)

You will be surprised when all is said and done, of the things you now "reject" that have been presented to you...

As if your "7 principles of God" are the determination of one being Spiritual, or a teacher... Please!

I have been given this gift (teaching) and have shared it with many... to the GLORY of CHRIST who shows me that which to teach...

All I need is the WORD of GOD, and the "principles" within ITS PAGES...

You are afraid to mention these, because likely, they have little or no Biblical basis or power...

If you had REAL faith in them... you would be BOLDLY and PROUDLY noting them... instead you play charades with them... pity... it only shows the weakness of these "supposed" principles...

Thanks -- but no thanks... I prefer the WORD... you can have your "7 principles"...

I eat solid food I don't drink milk, anymore bro, We will be like angles, ask the lord for he told us so, I will give you a tip bro Seven brothers had the same wife.

You misread even this small and easy to understand Biblical point Rodger... you are definitely "nursing"...

(Mk 11:25 / Matt 22:30) The Lord is here noting we would be AS are the ANGELS concerning MARRIAGE and GIVING in MARRIAGE... Get a Bible & read it... it will take you much closer to GOD, then these supposed "7 principles" in which you seem to place your faith...

God bless

God bless who Rodger?

You just dont get it do-ya?

Peace... willieH

[NewHope]

Originally Posted by willieH

A more SELFISH statement I have never heard Rodger... You are saved, and therefore, whatever happens to OTHERS is their problem eh?

How UNLIKE the teachings of CHRIST are your words... AS with RICK, your post is Scriptureless, which shows it to be nothing but, OPINION...

Peace... willieH

[Rick]

I have banned Willie so I will address my remarks to just whoever chooses to read these posts. Willie`s beligerence has crossed over the line of Christian etiquette and was only going to get worse from here. I am to the point where conversation must end because I can no longer ignore his abuse. I am quite capable of handeling Willie but I choose not to have that kind of variance on this website. It`s too bad really because Willie is an interesting heretic. Let`s review his beliefs.

Willie states that he believes the following things,

1) There is no hell and hell is a mistranslation and misunderstanding of the word grave.

2) Satan and his kingdom does not exist.

3) There is no lake of fire or future judgement of the lost.

4) All punishment of sin occurs in this life

5) There will not be a new heaven or a new earth so Willie does not appear to believe that God will ever create anything new.

6) Being in the flesh including both the dead and the living. Yet moving on from this life is some kind of a spiritual state of existence. We did not progress far enough for him to clarify his opinion on this but he apparently does not accept the traditional view of resurrection into a new immortal, celestial body as described in 1st corinthians chapter 15.

7) Man has no freewill of his own and everything man does is the will of God.

8) Everyone will be saved and no one will be lost or punished except those who believe that not everyone is going to be saved.

9) The fundamental beliefs of the churches are just religeon.

10) The Bible is filled with spiritual symbolism that must be interpreted to be understood.

11) God is not an absolute ruler over creation.


Willie of course believes he can support these views with scripture. If you are willing to broadly interpret scripture you can make it say just about anything you want it to. At least within your own mind. The basis for apostasy is interpretation of scripture. In order to understand gospel truth we must accept what scripture literally says and let the Bible intepret itself. The Bible tells us that God is not the author of confusion and the Bible does an excellant job of interpretating itself. The very foundation of truth is believing what God says about Himself and about other things.

This thread was supposed to be about freewill. A thorough study of scripture leads to the conclusion that man has freewill but not absolute freewill. We are all subject to influences and we must choose between being influenced by God`s Spirit or being influenced by the things and the god of this world. If we choose the world then God will turn us over to our carnel desires.

The truth about freewill is in the middle. We have freewill but our freewill blows with the wind and we are designed to be easily influenced and manipulated. That why we must make the choice to engage our will into obeying the Holy Spirit if we are to serve God.

[Randy]

hello friends,
for whatever it's worth; I'm a 'mid-acts dispie'. (I don't know what that may have to do with this topic) just thought I'd throw my cards on the table..

but anyway, I think it error to confuse free moral agency, ie 'yea ~or~ nay' with 'free will' (an attribute of our Sovreign Lord)

The first human attempt at 'free will' was disastrous... Eve in the Garden

[Randy]

following is an excerpt from an article on the late Miles J. Stanford's site (he was an Acts 2 dispie)... but I think it's good. The question should be perhaps framed "Free Will vs. volition"

anyhow Dan R. Smedra writes well here (I think):

FREE WILL vs. VOLITION

Dan R. Smedra

In Biblical theology, the terms free will and volition are NOT synonymous, but convey related ideas. Unless misused, the term free will communicates a sense of ultimate or absolute freedom, whereas volition simply implies the power of choice. For example, a prisoner locked in a 10x10 prison cell would not be considered free, but could still exercise the choice to either lay down, sit, or stand, etc. The individual has certainly lost a large portion of his freedom, but he has not been stripped of his volition. Thus the concept of freedom is not fixed, but must carry the added sense of degree. It is this need to recognize the degrees of freedom that has led theologians to differentiate free will from volition, and thus it is erroneous to characterize the issue in terms of black and white-- i.e., having "free will" or being a "puppet".

The pairing of the terms free with will is actually a satanically-inspired misnomer. These words should never be used in conjunction with one another, for it suggests a concept or state which has never existed--in God, the angels, nor man. The will is always subject to the nature of one's being. For God, His will is not absolutely free, but reflects who He is--His attributes. For example, He cannot will to be unjust or unloving. For the creature, free will can only be described as either a state of rebellion or state of obedience.

Further, the Christian church has suffered much confusion and possibly unnecessary division due to those, who through ignorance or other motive, seek to use the terms free will and volition interchangeably. An awareness of the difference between these terms is an essential prerequisite for correctly understanding Holy Scripture--the Bible. If one substitutes the fictitious concept of free will when only volition is meant, the meaning of the verse, the chapter, or the entire Book is altered--and pseudo-Christianity is born.

http://www.withchrist.org/volition.htm

[Rick]

Good article. Thanks for sharing randy.