|
| |||||||
| Christian Doctrine Discussion Forums, Chat and Blogs | |||||
|
Sponsored Links
|
| Notices |
| Doctrine Debate Forum This Forum is for discussion and debate of Christian beliefs and doctrines |
 |
| | Thread Tools | Display Modes |
|
#1
07.29.2008
| |||
| |||
 FREE WILL... do you have it? willieH: How-D to all you dudes and dudlettes! Let's talk about: FREE WILL... hmmm is this a BIBLICAL term? ...  1. Do YOU have "free will"?  2. What makes you think you do? (that is, ...if "think" you do have it!) 3. Can you name BIBLICAL support for it? If you are not sure, or you can't support "FREE WILL" with the Bible... peace... willieH  |
| Remove This Ad By Registering. Join Our Christian Forum Community For Free. Sponsored Links: |
| |
|
#2
07.29.2008
| ||||
| ||||
 Yes Quote:
Quote:
Those are my thoughts. Denise 
__________________  "Those who hope in the Lord will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles" Isaiah 40:31 |
|
#3
07.29.2008
| |||
| |||
 willieH: Hi Denise! ...nice ta-meet-ya!  Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
For GOD makes the claim to CONTROL (Eph 1:9-11) 9 Having made known us the mystery of HIS WILL according to HIS GOOD PLEASURE which HE hath PURPOSED IN HIMSELF... 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of times HE MIGHT gather together into one, ALL THINGS in CHRIST, both which are IN HEAVEN and which are on EARTH even in Him... 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the PURPOSE of HIM who WORKETH ALL THINGS, ...after the COUNSEL of HIS OWN WILL... In order for GOD to be ALMIGHTY and SOVEREIGN, all POWER must be under HIS CONTROL... to include the (often obstinate and short-sighted) creatures He has created... (including me!  )Because we have CHOICE does not mean that our "will" is FREE... for the "choices" available, CAN and DO, affect the individual "will" in its choosing... For example: I can turn left at a "dead end", ...or possibly turn right, but I am not FREE to go straight ahead, for it is not among the choices available... Therefore the circumstances I have arrived upon in this instance, in part remove FREEDOM from my choice, and dictate to me either LEFT or RIGHT. The Scriptures convey an idea that is other than FREE WILL suggests (which is WHY it is not BIBLICAL)... To claim that you have "FREE WILL", means that GOD does not affect your choice. For if He influences you even slightly, then that influence has affected your choice. Also, there are many verses which dictate otherwise, such as: Pro 20:24 Mans goings are of YHVH; ...HOW... can a man then understand his OWN WAY? Jer 10:23 O YHVH, I know that the WAY of man is NOT ...IN HIMSELF, ...NOT IN MAN that walketh to DIRECT his steps... Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. for there is NO POWER but OF GOD. The powers that BE, are ordained OF GOD... Rom 9:16 So then it is NOT of him that WILLETH, nor of him that runneth, but OF GOD that sheweth mercy. We LOVE God, not because WE choose to LOVE Him, it is because HE, when He reveals Himself to us, is IRRESISTIBLE... and it is our privilige to LOVE HIM... we are no prize for Him, ...HE is the prize for us... Rom 9:18-19 Therefore He hath mercy upon whom HE WILL, and whom HE WILL -- HE hardeneth... Thou wilt say unto me, ...WHY does He yet find fault? For WHO hath RESISTED HIS WILL? In the end, WE are but HIS TEMPLE, and HIS BODY... HE is the HEAD, and the HEAD ...makes the "calls"... HE has given this example in our own bodies... does your hand DO what it wishes? Or does it DO what YOU wish? Do your feet GO where they desire? Or is it YOU that determines where your feet GO? About the language of the verses you have quoted above: 1 Cor 10:23... the word you have quoted in this verse as "permissable" is actually LAWFUL (#G1832 -- EXESTI) This word is derived from 2 others, 1. (#G1537) EK/EX -- which means "to come into existance/originate by action or motion"... and the other 2. (#G1510) EIMI -- which means "I Exist, or I Am" So 1 Cor 10:23 actually states that: ALL things come into existence by our actions and motions, but are not always beneficial to us. Not sure which version you have quoted, but the Greek language does not convey "FREE WILL" with this verse, nor with its sister verse 1 Cor 6:12... as the same language occurs in that verse. peacE... willieH  Last edited by willieH; 07.30.2008 at 12:33 AM. Reason: minor corrections. |
|
#4
07.30.2008
| |||
| |||
 This is classic Calvinism that takes scripture out of context. If we didn`t have freewill then there would be sin in the world. Sin itself is proof that we have freewill. |
|
#5
07.30.2008
| |||
| |||
| Free will is to choose is it not? Choose from what, Good or evil. Aren’t we living in the age of choice? A choice for what? To be obedient to the law of God or not, to receive the gift of Holy Spirit or decline, to live in light or darkness, Material or in material, to be have self control or self controlled. To live by Gods law externally or internally, to be circumcised externally or internally? That is the Question, To be obedient to Gods law, is this what you call (do we have free will due to obedience to our creator by his will for us? It has nothing to do with free will but common respect. Would we have life if he didn't share himself? Isn’t that worth all the glory we can give him? For those who don't receive him as such deserve every thing they get. Do not angles know good as well as evil? For they have a choice as well. For we were destined to know good and evil at the begging for the reason of trust by free will. Who gives us warmth and light? Shouldn’t he choose to give it or take it away? This is God free will to do so is it not? God is not a dictator but a giver and helper as well as a reprover for those obedient to his will. Does one understand the principle of (Meaning Reconciliation creation) or (deception lies and theft,) but what is free will but choice between the two. God bless |
| Remove This Ad By Registering. Join Our Christian Forum Community For Free. Sponsored Links: |
| |
|
#6
07.31.2008
| |||
| |||
| willieH: Hi Rick... More Scriptureless commentary from you with no basis in the Word... There is no Scriptural basis for "CONTEXT" as you require it... And "FREE WILL" is an UNSCRIPTURAL doctrine, which is why you do not name a basis for it... Quote:
You say that I take things out of "CONTEXT" and therefore I am a Calvinist... this in itself is foolish... I have already displayed that "CONTEXT" is a MAN directed rule, and that it is NOT required by the WORD of GOD... if it is, show me where (I wont hold my breath) JESUS called PETER ...SATAN... therefore according to YOUR carnal theology... PETER ...IS... SATAN... Please! Your CONTEXTUAL requirements are the requirements of MEN... which is why you do not name Scriptural support for your weak an carnal opinions Rick... standing upon the sand that foolish MEN have provided you... btw...JESUS spoke nothing but TRUTH while here on earth... There are principles in Scripture which STAND alone as well in the story, report or CONTEXT they appear... According to you THOU SHALT NOT KILL, is confined to EX 10:13 and is therefore an INVALID requirement OUTSIDE its "CONTEXT"...  Or that YHVH God is only the GOD of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob... Please! Sin is "proof" we have choice and the ability to DISOBEY which is ADVERSITY... The ADVERSITY in MEN is satan... which is WHY JESUS called Peter SATAN... Sin occurs in EVERY MAN THIS WAY: James 1:14 14 But ...EVERY MAN... is tempted when he is DRAWN AWAY of HIS OWN LUST and enticed... Peace... willieH |
|
#7
07.31.2008
| |||||||
| |||||||
 willieH: Hi Rodger... nice ta meetya!  Quote:
Quote:
(Gal 2:20) I ...AM... crucified WITH CHRIST, nevertheless I LIVE, yet ...NOT I, ...but CHRIST liveth IN ME; and the LIFE I NOW LIVE in the flesh, I live BY the faith of of the SON of GOD... The works which proceed from a believer are NOT his own... to include any and all "choices" made... and IS the WILL OF GOD working... Those which choose EVIL, is ADVERSITY working in them... and IS the WILL of MAN working... Quote:
How UNLIKE the teachings of CHRIST are your words... AS with RICK, your post is Scriptureless, which shows it to be nothing but, OPINION... Quote:
You make TWO large assumptions here Rodger...We do NOT KNOW whether ANGELS ever "choose" or not... show me a Scripture where, of itself, an ANGEL made a "choice"? We also do not KNOW that ANGELS KNOW good and evil... they OBSERVE it... but KNOWLEDGE is not JUST INFORMATION alone... To actually KNOW something, we apply INFORMATION to EXPERIENCE... Angels have not EXPERIENCED PAIN, nor have they EXPERIENCED SORROW, nor have the EXPERIENCED DEATH... these are all RELATED to KNOWING GOOD and EVIL... for it is by COMPARISON within EXPERIENCE that KNOWLEDGE is established. I can watch someone DRIVE a CAR, and then read all the BOOKS available about it... but after observing and gaining pertinent INFORMATION, this certainly does not mean that I now KNOW how to DRIVE A CAR... I must get behind the wheel and step on the gas, and begin to negotiate the car... then and only THEN by this EXPERIENCE, can I possibly KNOW how to drive... Quote:
Listen and learn, if the Spirit which is the WORD shall be heard BY YOU... TRUTH is the creator of FREEDOM dude... and ONLY when you become DISALIGNED with YOUR WILL, ...and "choose" according to GOD'S WILL... is your WILL become FREE... FREE of WHAT? FREE of YOUR WILL! (which is IN BONDAGE to itself) Here is how it (FREEDOM of WILL) happens... and it is NOT of your doing and/or "choosing"! GOD creates FREEDOM in MAN: (John 14:6) JESUS said unto him: I am the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE, no MAN cometh unto the Father but BY ME... Men cannot come to the FATHER except via the TRUTH... Men do not KNOW the TRUTH... it takes GOD to bring them to it... and to understand it... (John 6:44) No MAN ...CAN... COME to Me, except the FATHER which hath sent ME, draw him, and I will raise him on the last day. It is NOT by your "choice" that you COME to CHRIST... it is by the FATHER, DRAWING you to HIM.. Not BY your decision, nor by your "choosing" do you come to the WORD... (John 8:32) And ye shall know the TRUTH, and the TRUTH shall MAKE YOU FREE! It is NOT of ourselves that FREEDOM comes... and it is NOT of ourselves that choosing FREEDOM comes... it is the WORK of GOD to create it IN US: (Eph 2:8-10) 8 For BY GRACE are ye saved through faith, and THAT [faith is] not of yourselves... it is the GIFT of GOD: 9 NOT of WORKS lest any man should BOAST... 10 for WE are HIS WORKMANSHIP... CREATED in CHRIST JESUS unto GOOD WORKS which God hath BEFORE ORDAINED that we should walk in them. GOD before ordained, predestinated these things... they are NOT optional... they are WRITTEN in the WORD, and we follow the TRUTH which IS or IS NOT WRITTEN of us. GOD decided the lives of Jacob and Esau BEFORE they had done ANY "good or evil"... (Rom 9:9-13) GOD is no repecter of persons... that which YOU and I do or do not do, is FOREORDAINED according to HIS PURPOSE (Eph 1:11)... This is not some "game of chance we are admidst Rodger... it is GOD working HIS WORK and PURPOSE in ALL THINGS... get used to it... for it shall continue FOREVER. (John 8:36) If... THE SON... therefore shall MAKE YOU FREE, ye shall be FREE INDEED! MEN do not choose FREEDOM... MEN choose BONDAGE which is SIN... the WORD of GOD creates FREEDOM in us... It is the WORK of GOD, done in each, by the DRAWING of the FATHER (at His descretion and time) to CHRIST which is the TRUTH, and thereby is the WILL of MAN (which is IN BONDAGE to SIN, not FREE), destroyed. Quote:
GOD is not a dictator... He INTRODUCES FREEDOM by His LOVE, throught HIS SON, which CREATES LOVE and LIFE, in OUR sinful and SELFISH hearts in the stead of SIN and DEATH which is produced by our "wills"... That LOVE is compassionate for others... which is why CHRIST said... FORGIVE and LOVE your enemies... BLESS them that curse you... (Mat 5:44) Be honest brother... YOU do not do this NATURALLY! Neither do I... it is done VIA CHRIST ...IN US... which is WHY ...HE... deserves ALL the credit and GLORY, FOR IT! Think about it Rodger, ...Why would GOD instruct us to LOVE, FORGIVE and BLESS our enemies, and then turn around and UNMERCIFULLY, do the OPPOSITE to HIS? Quote:
FREE WILL is the WILL of GOD (not man)... which is WHY it is to be PRAYED for (Matt 6:10)... and DONE in earth as it IS done in heaven... and shall be ETERNALLY done! MAN's "will" is IN BONDAGE to ITSELF... and is therefore concerned with SELF... which is what SIN in its most basic definition... IS... UNSELFISHNESS is to disregard oneself, and be concerned about others FIRST, ...starting with GOD... As is said in Scripture... How can you say you LOVE GOD whom you CANNOT SEE, when you do not LOVE your BROTHER, ...whom you CAN SEE? Peace... willieH |
|
#8
07.31.2008
| |||
| |||
| Do we not reason with God by the Holy Spirit through Christ by Choice of our own? Do we not choose to confess our sins? 1 John 1; 9 If we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleans us of our unrighteousness What is our conscious and what is our subconscious? For I choose not to do for what I want to do. The spirit is willing and the flesh is week. I will give you some insight, Repentance leads to salvation this is the reason Christ was incarnated in the flesh, and if you don't repent you will not receive the Holy Spirit for salvation. As I said choice is free will. For we need to be trusted by God to enter into his kingdom. By all means what you say is correct, but only when one has received salvation. By self-choice of repenting, yelding to the grace of God through Christ by faith to receive the holy spirit which the first Adam lost through deception. Returned through the second Adam Christ Jesus our lord. One of flesh and one of spirit and will be one’s helper forever and ever. I believe experience leads to knowledge as a designer of prototypes myself, the crumbs lead to the loaf, I don't believe knowing the loaf leads to the crumbs. Is it fair to take the crumbs away from the young? But one day the young will come to choice of there own loaf or God’s. Remembering there is only one Father and one Teacher and Gods temple is within, For we as Christians all like to be Good students and carry a zealousness for our lord. Do Angels know Good and evil (YES) God Said" now man has come to be like US knowing good and Evil. When we become angles we have experenced the crumbs which makes our own loaf and will remember everything from good and evil pain, Sorrow love, Deception, lies, theft, slander, hate death, self image we will never forget it. ….. Thats why God Created us on Earth , to over come these temptations, Then we will live by Meaning reconciliation creation forever. Revelation 3 ;21The lord said"As for the one who overcomes the world I will grant him to sit beside me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down besides My Father on his throne. Why was mankind created on earth by God as living Souls? And not as spiritual beings? Is it because of the harvest, why a harvest? Some will be saved and some will be lost, Two will stand in the field and one will be taken which one will be taken and which one will stay? Are the saved chosen by God or did the saved (choose) God will? Have you come to know the seven principles of God through the Holy Spirit, if so tell me? And what are the seven opposing principles of the devil? In spirit and truth God bless |
|
#9
08.01.2008
| |||
| |||
| My comments in ( ) More Scriptureless commentary from you with no basis in the Word... ( Everything I have posted is based in scripture. The problem for you is that you don`t believe what scripture tells you and you think you are able to make your own interpretation of what it says.) There is no Scriptural basis for "CONTEXT" as you require it... ( Sure there is. The Bible calls it rightly dividing the word of truth. ) And "FREE WILL" is an UNSCRIPTURAL doctrine, which is why you do not name a basis for it... ( There are many scriptures that pertain to freewill. So it is entirely scriptural. Do you think there is unrighteousness with God? Apparantly you do since you believe everything everyone does is God`s will. I could fill this page with verses that show freewill. But I will name just one and one verse is all that`s needed. ) Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: btw...JESUS spoke nothing but TRUTH while here on earth... ( If you believe that then why don`t you believe what He says?) Sin is "proof" we have choice and the ability to DISOBEY which is ADVERSITY... (Then you acknowledge freewill after all. You ever read what scripture says about a doubleminded man?) The ADVERSITY in MEN is satan... ( It`s funny. I mention what scripture says and you fault me for not citing chapter and verse and then you turn around and make claims that do not appear in scripture like the one just above. If you really knew your Bible you would understand what I have been telling you.) |
|
#10
08.01.2008
| |||
| |||
| My comments in ( ) No, it is NOT... Dogs choose... computers choose... do they have FREE WILL? ( Dogs do. Computers aren`t alive and do not have a will so they cannot be compared.) Quote: Choose from what, Good or evil. Aren’t we living in the age of choice? A choice for what? To be obedient to the law of God or not, to receive the gift of Holy Spirit or decline, to live in light or darkness, Material or in material, to be have self control or self controlled. To live by Gods law externally or internally, to be circumcised externally or internally? ( You show that you do not understand what the choice is. The choice is between serving God or serving sin. Everyone chooses one or the other.) |
Linear Mode
