Blog On Gift Of Tongues

[Rick]

( Since this has become a topic of discussion I have reposted this essay from my blog.)



Speaking In Tongues

Posted 07.03.2008 at 07:14 PM by Rick
Speaking In Tongues


Speaking in tongues is an issue I usually avoid talking to people
about.I have avoided it because I do not believe speaking in tongues
is a requirement of salvation. Neither do I believe that all of us
who speak in tongues are liars. Like many other doctrine debates I
simply don't like and don't agree with the denominational arguments
that are made about it. Real Biblical truth steps on a lot of toes
and this issue is a toe crunching mess of unsound doctrine.


Like most denominational doctrine error the culprits are: 1) man made
church traditions And 2) the desire to shrink God and put Him in our
little doctrine box. Most doctrine error is a direct result of these
two things.

So what I'm going to do is pretend that you are not indoctrinated and
present a Biblical commentary on tongue talking that out of necessity
will also involve talking a little bit about church stuff after the
end of the writing of the New Testament.


The first question to be asked is "Why?" Why Tongues? Why did they
speak in tongues? When I first read about this tongue talking I
wanted to know why and it just seemed really strange to me. And it
took a long time before I found the answer to this question because
no one had a good Biblical answer for me that I could be satisfied
with.


I got the standard explanations: outward sign of an inward thing,
everybody spoke in tongues in the Bible, everybody speaks in tongues
when they get the Holy Ghost, got to speak in tongues to prove you
are saved etc. etc. etc.


The problem I had with this logic was that I believed, repented, felt
forgiven and felt saved before I knew anything about this tongue
talking stuff. And I had to remember my beloved aunt and uncle. They
never did no tongue talking but they were fabulous Godly people and
somebody telling me that God wasn't living inside of them made me
feel like poking the preacher in his eyeball.


And my buddy that I liked going to church with wouldn't stay in one
place. That's how I got stuck going to the tongue talking church in
the first place. We went to all kinds of these places and I noticed
some things that I couldn't agree with then or now.


It seemed in many places that people were being coerced and taught to
speak in tongues. A lot of it seemed like gibberish to me rather then
the tongues described in the Bible. I came to feel that there was a
pseudo tongues experience going on that was more about glorifying
yourself in the flesh then anything else. And today, I still believe
that is true.


Mark 16:17-18 lists the signs that follow them that believe. These
are the power to cast out devils, speak in new tongues, divine
protection from deadly things, the laying on of hands for the sick
leading to their recovery.


All of these signs are faith based. Someone who has faith to believe
that these signs follow them that believe will have these signs
following them if they are walking in the Holy Spirit and not
following the flesh.


The kind of faith that results in these signs is steady, enduring,
unwavering faith. It's not always easy to maintain that kind of faith
and the purity of following the Holy Spirit completely and fully.


If a person doesn't believe these signs follow them that believe then
the signs won't be there. If a person is struggling with desires of
the flesh the signs probably won't be there.


A lot of people who believe in the signs think people who don't
believe in them aren't saved. (Forgive the double negative)


This is error because the signs are not a requirement of salvation or
the proof of ones salvation. The proof is the fruits of the Spirit
not the signs or the gifts.


In Acts chapter 2 the Holy Spirit is manifesting as a sign to them
that believe which is why some believe that it is a different kind of
tongues in Acts 2. For me it's a don't know don't care issue.


Paul teaches on the gifts of the Holy Spirit in 1st Corinthians 12. I
believe signs and gifts are the same thing. Some would disagree but I
can't see a Biblical difference between the two.


Tongues are listed as a gift so they are all in the same category.
1st Corinthians 12:10 speaks of divers kinds of tongues. It means
various kinds of tongues. It seems to me that the Bible is simply
saying that people speaking in tongues will all sound different.


1st Corinthians chapter 14 teaches that speaking in tongues is not
the best gift of the Spirit. In 14:4 Paul says that someone speaking
in tongues is edifying themselves. From that verse I conclude that
tongues is the least desirable of all the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Those who believe it is a requirement for salvation are way off the
mark.

So it is often seen that churches teach tongues as essential for
salvation and they end up with a bunch of tongue talkers glorying in
their own flesh and having to teach new converts how to speak in the
pseudo tongues. It's very sad and very confusing to the unlearned.

In 1st Corinthians 12:28-30 Paul teaches that only part of a
congregation will have the gift of speaking in tongues. It's
unbiblical to teach otherwise and if you go that direction pseudo
tongues is the result. It's not the real thing. It's diet generic
cola.

In 1st Corinthians 14:22 Paul teaches that tongues are for a sign to
unbelievers. That's the primary purpose of it. It has secondary
purpose of speaking to God in prayer.
(1st Corinthians 14:2).

Lastly it is a sign that the day of the Lord is coming. Acts 2:14-20.


Below are the two major teachings on the gift of tongues found in the
Bible.

2For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men,
but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he
speaketh mysteries.

3But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and
exhortation, and comfort.

4He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that
prophesieth edifieth the church.

5I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye
prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh
with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive
edifying.

6Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall
I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by
knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

7And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp,
except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known
what is piped or harped?

8For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare
himself to the battle?

9So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be
understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak
into the air.

10There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and
none of them is without signification.

11Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto
him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a
barbarian unto me.

12Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek
that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

13Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he
may interpret.

14For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my
understanding is unfruitful.

15What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with
the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing
with the understanding also.

16Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that
occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks,
seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

17For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

18I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

19Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my
understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten
thousand words in an unknown tongue.

20Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be
ye children, but in understanding be men.

21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips
will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not
hear me, saith the Lord.

22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to
them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that
believe not, but for them which believe.

23If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and
all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned,
or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

24But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or
one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:

25And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so
falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is
in you of a truth.

26How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you
hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath
an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

27If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the
most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

28But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the
church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

29Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

30If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first
hold his peace.

31For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all
may be comforted.

32And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

33For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all
churches of the saints.

34Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not
permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under
obedience as also saith the law.

35And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at
home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

36What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

37If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him
acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the
commandments of the Lord.

38But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

39Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak
with tongues.

1st Corinthians 14:2-39

1Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you
ignorant.

2Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols,
even as ye were led.

3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the
Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that
Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God
which worketh all in all.

7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit
withal.

8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another
the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of
healing by the same Spirit;

10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to
another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to
another the interpretation of tongues:

11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing
to every man severally as he will.

12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members
of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be
Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made
to drink into one Spirit.

14For the body is not one member, but many.

15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the
body; is it therefore not of the body?

16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of
the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the
whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

18But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as
it hath pleased him.

19And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor
again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more
feeble, are necessary:

23And those members of the body, which we think to be less
honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our
uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body
together, having given more abundant honour to that part which
lacked.

25That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members
should have the same care one for another.

26And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or
one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily
prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of
healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all
workers of miracles?

30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all
interpret?

31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more
excellent way.

1st Corinthians 12:1-31

Paul gave this prophecy in 1st Corinthians 13

8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall
fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be
knowledge, it shall vanish away.

After the first century the Roman church emerged within Christianity
and along with the Eastern Orthodox church took over. This subversion
of the church brought the fulfillment of Paul's prophecy. The church
entered into apostasy. The prophecies of God failed. Tongues ceased.
Knowledge of God vanished away. This is the legacy of the Roman and
Eastern Orthodox churches.

Amos made this prophecy:

11Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a
famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water,
but of hearing the words of the LORD:

12And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to
the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and
shall not find it.

13In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.

I believe that these many centuries of virtual silence from God is
the famine described here in the book of Amos.

It is clear that tongues existed and continued up through the end of
the New Testament writings. Paul prophesied that they would cease and
from that one sentence comes the doctrine that they ceased never to
return. No one knows exactly when people stopped speaking in tongues.
It is a historical fact that tongues ceased and all the other signs
to them that believe disappeared as well. There are those who seek to
rewrite history and claim otherwise but they are in error.


In the late 1800`s a number of committed Christians all over the
country began praying and seeking God to return the signs to the body
of Christ. These prayers were answered in the early 1900`s via a
little revival that was going on in Azusa street in San Francisco.
From this one revival came the entire Spirit filled church movement.
Compromised though it has become, it is a movement of about 500
million believers today.


Some of the signs of the day of the Lord appeared in the 1st century.
But not of all of them. As the true day of the Lord approaches all of
the signs of its coming must appear. Speaking in tongues is one of
those signs. For this reason, its reappearance is both Biblical and
necessary.

[rodger]

Thanks for the reasoning,










God bless

[joeycastaneda56]

Originally Posted by Rick

( Since this has become a topic of discussion I have reposted this essay from my blog.)



Speaking In Tongues

Posted 07.03.2008 at 07:14 PM by Rick
Speaking In Tongues


Speaking in tongues is an issue I usually avoid talking to people
about.I have avoided it because I do not believe speaking in tongues
is a requirement of salvation. Neither do I believe that all of us
who speak in tongues are liars. Like many other doctrine debates I
simply don't like and don't agree with the denominational arguments
that are made about it. Real Biblical truth steps on a lot of toes
and this issue is a toe crunching mess of unsound doctrine.


Like most denominational doctrine error the culprits are: 1) man made
church traditions And 2) the desire to shrink God and put Him in our
little doctrine box. Most doctrine error is a direct result of these
two things.

So what I'm going to do is pretend that you are not indoctrinated and
present a Biblical commentary on tongue talking that out of necessity
will also involve talking a little bit about church stuff after the
end of the writing of the New Testament.


The first question to be asked is "Why?" Why Tongues? Why did they
speak in tongues? When I first read about this tongue talking I
wanted to know why and it just seemed really strange to me. And it
took a long time before I found the answer to this question because
no one had a good Biblical answer for me that I could be satisfied
with.


I got the standard explanations: outward sign of an inward thing,
everybody spoke in tongues in the Bible, everybody speaks in tongues
when they get the Holy Ghost, got to speak in tongues to prove you
are saved etc. etc. etc.


The problem I had with this logic was that I believed, repented, felt
forgiven and felt saved before I knew anything about this tongue
talking stuff. And I had to remember my beloved aunt and uncle. They
never did no tongue talking but they were fabulous Godly people and
somebody telling me that God wasn't living inside of them made me
feel like poking the preacher in his eyeball.


And my buddy that I liked going to church with wouldn't stay in one
place. That's how I got stuck going to the tongue talking church in
the first place. We went to all kinds of these places and I noticed
some things that I couldn't agree with then or now.


It seemed in many places that people were being coerced and taught to
speak in tongues. A lot of it seemed like gibberish to me rather then
the tongues described in the Bible. I came to feel that there was a
pseudo tongues experience going on that was more about glorifying
yourself in the flesh then anything else. And today, I still believe
that is true.


Mark 16:17-18 lists the signs that follow them that believe. These
are the power to cast out devils, speak in new tongues, divine
protection from deadly things, the laying on of hands for the sick
leading to their recovery.


All of these signs are faith based. Someone who has faith to believe
that these signs follow them that believe will have these signs
following them if they are walking in the Holy Spirit and not
following the flesh.


The kind of faith that results in these signs is steady, enduring,
unwavering faith. It's not always easy to maintain that kind of faith
and the purity of following the Holy Spirit completely and fully.


If a person doesn't believe these signs follow them that believe then
the signs won't be there. If a person is struggling with desires of
the flesh the signs probably won't be there.


A lot of people who believe in the signs think people who don't
believe in them aren't saved. (Forgive the double negative)


This is error because the signs are not a requirement of salvation or
the proof of ones salvation. The proof is the fruits of the Spirit
not the signs or the gifts.


In Acts chapter 2 the Holy Spirit is manifesting as a sign to them
that believe which is why some believe that it is a different kind of
tongues in Acts 2. For me it's a don't know don't care issue.


Paul teaches on the gifts of the Holy Spirit in 1st Corinthians 12. I
believe signs and gifts are the same thing. Some would disagree but I
can't see a Biblical difference between the two.


Tongues are listed as a gift so they are all in the same category.
1st Corinthians 12:10 speaks of divers kinds of tongues. It means
various kinds of tongues. It seems to me that the Bible is simply
saying that people speaking in tongues will all sound different.


1st Corinthians chapter 14 teaches that speaking in tongues is not
the best gift of the Spirit. In 14:4 Paul says that someone speaking
in tongues is edifying themselves. From that verse I conclude that
tongues is the least desirable of all the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Those who believe it is a requirement for salvation are way off the
mark.

So it is often seen that churches teach tongues as essential for
salvation and they end up with a bunch of tongue talkers glorying in
their own flesh and having to teach new converts how to speak in the
pseudo tongues. It's very sad and very confusing to the unlearned.

In 1st Corinthians 12:28-30 Paul teaches that only part of a
congregation will have the gift of speaking in tongues. It's
unbiblical to teach otherwise and if you go that direction pseudo
tongues is the result. It's not the real thing. It's diet generic
cola.

In 1st Corinthians 14:22 Paul teaches that tongues are for a sign to
unbelievers. That's the primary purpose of it. It has secondary
purpose of speaking to God in prayer.
(1st Corinthians 14:2).

Lastly it is a sign that the day of the Lord is coming. Acts 2:14-20.


Below are the two major teachings on the gift of tongues found in the
Bible.

2For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men,
but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he
speaketh mysteries.

3But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and
exhortation, and comfort.

4He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that
prophesieth edifieth the church.

5I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye
prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh
with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive
edifying.

6Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall
I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by
knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

7And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp,
except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known
what is piped or harped?

8For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare
himself to the battle?

9So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be
understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak
into the air.

10There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and
none of them is without signification.

11Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto
him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a
barbarian unto me.

12Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek
that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

13Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he
may interpret.

14For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my
understanding is unfruitful.

15What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with
the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing
with the understanding also.

16Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that
occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks,
seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

17For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

18I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

19Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my
understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten
thousand words in an unknown tongue.

20Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be
ye children, but in understanding be men.

21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips
will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not
hear me, saith the Lord.

22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to
them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that
believe not, but for them which believe.

23If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and
all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned,
or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

24But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or
one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:

25And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so
falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is
in you of a truth.

26How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you
hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath
an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

27If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the
most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

28But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the
church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

29Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

30If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first
hold his peace.

31For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all
may be comforted.

32And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

33For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all
churches of the saints.

34Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not
permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under
obedience as also saith the law.

35And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at
home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

36What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

37If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him
acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the
commandments of the Lord.

38But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

39Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak
with tongues.

1st Corinthians 14:2-39

1Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you
ignorant.

2Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols,
even as ye were led.

3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the
Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that
Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God
which worketh all in all.

7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit
withal.

8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another
the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of
healing by the same Spirit;

10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to
another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to
another the interpretation of tongues:

11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing
to every man severally as he will.

12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members
of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be
Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made
to drink into one Spirit.

14For the body is not one member, but many.

15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the
body; is it therefore not of the body?

16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of
the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the
whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

18But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as
it hath pleased him.

19And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor
again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more
feeble, are necessary:

23And those members of the body, which we think to be less
honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our
uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body
together, having given more abundant honour to that part which
lacked.

25That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members
should have the same care one for another.

26And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or
one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily
prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of
healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all
workers of miracles?

30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all
interpret?

31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more
excellent way.

1st Corinthians 12:1-31

Paul gave this prophecy in 1st Corinthians 13

8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall
fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be
knowledge, it shall vanish away.

After the first century the Roman church emerged within Christianity
and along with the Eastern Orthodox church took over. This subversion
of the church brought the fulfillment of Paul's prophecy. The church
entered into apostasy. The prophecies of God failed. Tongues ceased.
Knowledge of God vanished away. This is the legacy of the Roman and
Eastern Orthodox churches.

Amos made this prophecy:

11Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a
famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water,
but of hearing the words of the LORD:

12And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to
the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and
shall not find it.

13In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.

I believe that these many centuries of virtual silence from God is
the famine described here in the book of Amos.

It is clear that tongues existed and continued up through the end of
the New Testament writings. Paul prophesied that they would cease and
from that one sentence comes the doctrine that they ceased never to
return. No one knows exactly when people stopped speaking in tongues.
It is a historical fact that tongues ceased and all the other signs
to them that believe disappeared as well. There are those who seek to
rewrite history and claim otherwise but they are in error.


In the late 1800`s a number of committed Christians all over the
country began praying and seeking God to return the signs to the body
of Christ. These prayers were answered in the early 1900`s via a
little revival that was going on in Azusa street in San Francisco.
From this one revival came the entire Spirit filled church movement.
Compromised though it has become, it is a movement of about 500
million believers today.


Some of the signs of the day of the Lord appeared in the 1st century.
But not of all of them. As the true day of the Lord approaches all of
the signs of its coming must appear. Speaking in tongues is one of
those signs. For this reason, its reappearance is both Biblical and
necessary.

.........................<<>> Rick when you made the statement that your (Beloved Apostolic Pentecostal Watchman Brother Baxter) would (Frown) at the Nazarene Church because they are not Filled with Holy Spirit. In other words you were stating that they were not saved. But then you come back and change your statement and say this.

About Churches like the Nazarene. This is error because the signs are not a requirement of (Salvation) or proof of one Salvation. That is why I wanted your statement it in writing. So you can't change your (Statement).

I am working on a statement about the Gifts and being filled with the Holy Spirit..............................Joey

[joeycastaneda56]

Originally Posted by Rick

( Since this has become a topic of discussion I have reposted this essay from my blog.)



Speaking In Tongues

Posted 07.03.2008 at 07:14 PM by Rick
Speaking In Tongues


Speaking in tongues is an issue I usually avoid talking to people
about.I have avoided it because I do not believe speaking in tongues
is a requirement of salvation. Neither do I believe that all of us
who speak in tongues are liars. Like many other doctrine debates I
simply don't like and don't agree with the denominational arguments
that are made about it. Real Biblical truth steps on a lot of toes
and this issue is a toe crunching mess of unsound doctrine.


Like most denominational doctrine error the culprits are: 1) man made
church traditions And 2) the desire to shrink God and put Him in our
little doctrine box. Most doctrine error is a direct result of these
two things.

So what I'm going to do is pretend that you are not indoctrinated and
present a Biblical commentary on tongue talking that out of necessity
will also involve talking a little bit about church stuff after the
end of the writing of the New Testament.


The first question to be asked is "Why?" Why Tongues? Why did they
speak in tongues? When I first read about this tongue talking I
wanted to know why and it just seemed really strange to me. And it
took a long time before I found the answer to this question because
no one had a good Biblical answer for me that I could be satisfied
with.


I got the standard explanations: outward sign of an inward thing,
everybody spoke in tongues in the Bible, everybody speaks in tongues
when they get the Holy Ghost, got to speak in tongues to prove you
are saved etc. etc. etc.


The problem I had with this logic was that I believed, repented, felt
forgiven and felt saved before I knew anything about this tongue
talking stuff. And I had to remember my beloved aunt and uncle. They
never did no tongue talking but they were fabulous Godly people and
somebody telling me that God wasn't living inside of them made me
feel like poking the preacher in his eyeball.


And my buddy that I liked going to church with wouldn't stay in one
place. That's how I got stuck going to the tongue talking church in
the first place. We went to all kinds of these places and I noticed
some things that I couldn't agree with then or now.


It seemed in many places that people were being coerced and taught to
speak in tongues. A lot of it seemed like gibberish to me rather then
the tongues described in the Bible. I came to feel that there was a
pseudo tongues experience going on that was more about glorifying
yourself in the flesh then anything else. And today, I still believe
that is true.


Mark 16:17-18 lists the signs that follow them that believe. These
are the power to cast out devils, speak in new tongues, divine
protection from deadly things, the laying on of hands for the sick
leading to their recovery.


All of these signs are faith based. Someone who has faith to believe
that these signs follow them that believe will have these signs
following them if they are walking in the Holy Spirit and not
following the flesh.


The kind of faith that results in these signs is steady, enduring,
unwavering faith. It's not always easy to maintain that kind of faith
and the purity of following the Holy Spirit completely and fully.


If a person doesn't believe these signs follow them that believe then
the signs won't be there. If a person is struggling with desires of
the flesh the signs probably won't be there.


A lot of people who believe in the signs think people who don't
believe in them aren't saved. (Forgive the double negative)


This is error because the signs are not a requirement of salvation or
the proof of ones salvation. The proof is the fruits of the Spirit
not the signs or the gifts.


In Acts chapter 2 the Holy Spirit is manifesting as a sign to them
that believe which is why some believe that it is a different kind of
tongues in Acts 2. For me it's a don't know don't care issue.


Paul teaches on the gifts of the Holy Spirit in 1st Corinthians 12. I
believe signs and gifts are the same thing. Some would disagree but I
can't see a Biblical difference between the two.


Tongues are listed as a gift so they are all in the same category.
1st Corinthians 12:10 speaks of divers kinds of tongues. It means
various kinds of tongues. It seems to me that the Bible is simply
saying that people speaking in tongues will all sound different.


1st Corinthians chapter 14 teaches that speaking in tongues is not
the best gift of the Spirit. In 14:4 Paul says that someone speaking
in tongues is edifying themselves. From that verse I conclude that
tongues is the least desirable of all the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Those who believe it is a requirement for salvation are way off the
mark.

So it is often seen that churches teach tongues as essential for
salvation and they end up with a bunch of tongue talkers glorying in
their own flesh and having to teach new converts how to speak in the
pseudo tongues. It's very sad and very confusing to the unlearned.

In 1st Corinthians 12:28-30 Paul teaches that only part of a
congregation will have the gift of speaking in tongues. It's
unbiblical to teach otherwise and if you go that direction pseudo
tongues is the result. It's not the real thing. It's diet generic
cola.

In 1st Corinthians 14:22 Paul teaches that tongues are for a sign to
unbelievers. That's the primary purpose of it. It has secondary
purpose of speaking to God in prayer.
(1st Corinthians 14:2).

Lastly it is a sign that the day of the Lord is coming. Acts 2:14-20.


Below are the two major teachings on the gift of tongues found in the
Bible.

2For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men,
but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he
speaketh mysteries.

3But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and
exhortation, and comfort.

4He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that
prophesieth edifieth the church.

5I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye
prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh
with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive
edifying.

6Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall
I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by
knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

7And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp,
except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known
what is piped or harped?

8For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare
himself to the battle?

9So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be
understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak
into the air.

10There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and
none of them is without signification.

11Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto
him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a
barbarian unto me.

12Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek
that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

13Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he
may interpret.

14For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my
understanding is unfruitful.

15What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with
the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing
with the understanding also.

16Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that
occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks,
seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

17For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

18I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

19Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my
understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten
thousand words in an unknown tongue.

20Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be
ye children, but in understanding be men.

21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips
will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not
hear me, saith the Lord.

22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to
them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that
believe not, but for them which believe.

23If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and
all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned,
or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

24But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or
one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:

25And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so
falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is
in you of a truth.

26How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you
hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath
an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

27If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the
most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

28But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the
church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

29Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

30If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first
hold his peace.

31For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all
may be comforted.

32And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

33For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all
churches of the saints.

34Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not
permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under
obedience as also saith the law.

35And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at
home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

36What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

37If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him
acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the
commandments of the Lord.

38But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

39Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak
with tongues.

1st Corinthians 14:2-39

1Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you
ignorant.

2Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols,
even as ye were led.

3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the
Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that
Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God
which worketh all in all.

7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit
withal.

8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another
the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of
healing by the same Spirit;

10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to
another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to
another the interpretation of tongues:

11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing
to every man severally as he will.

12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members
of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be
Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made
to drink into one Spirit.

14For the body is not one member, but many.

15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the
body; is it therefore not of the body?

16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of
the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the
whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

18But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as
it hath pleased him.

19And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor
again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more
feeble, are necessary:

23And those members of the body, which we think to be less
honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our
uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body
together, having given more abundant honour to that part which
lacked.

25That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members
should have the same care one for another.

26And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or
one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily
prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of
healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all
workers of miracles?

30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all
interpret?

31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more
excellent way.

1st Corinthians 12:1-31

Paul gave this prophecy in 1st Corinthians 13

8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall
fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be
knowledge, it shall vanish away.

After the first century the Roman church emerged within Christianity
and along with the Eastern Orthodox church took over. This subversion
of the church brought the fulfillment of Paul's prophecy. The church
entered into apostasy. The prophecies of God failed. Tongues ceased.
Knowledge of God vanished away. This is the legacy of the Roman and
Eastern Orthodox churches.

Amos made this prophecy:

11Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a
famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water,
but of hearing the words of the LORD:

12And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to
the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and
shall not find it.

13In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.

I believe that these many centuries of virtual silence from God is
the famine described here in the book of Amos.

It is clear that tongues existed and continued up through the end of
the New Testament writings. Paul prophesied that they would cease and
from that one sentence comes the doctrine that they ceased never to
return. No one knows exactly when people stopped speaking in tongues.
It is a historical fact that tongues ceased and all the other signs
to them that believe disappeared as well. There are those who seek to
rewrite history and claim otherwise but they are in error.


In the late 1800`s a number of committed Christians all over the
country began praying and seeking God to return the signs to the body
of Christ. These prayers were answered in the early 1900`s via a
little revival that was going on in Azusa street in San Francisco.
From this one revival came the entire Spirit filled church movement.
Compromised though it has become, it is a movement of about 500
million believers today.


Some of the signs of the day of the Lord appeared in the 1st century.
But not of all of them. As the true day of the Lord approaches all of
the signs of its coming must appear. Speaking in tongues is one of
those signs. For this reason, its reappearance is both Biblical and
necessary.

.........<<>> (The Nine Spiritual Gifts: Unity in Diversity) - (1 Cor.12:1-11).

(1 Cor.12:1) - The Corinthians misunderstood the manner in which the Holy Spirit works through individuals, and they abused the use of Spiritual Gifts, apparently regarding then as ends in themselves. In particular, they misunderstood then proper public use of the gift of tongues and it often confused the order of their meetings. They also misunderstood the power of the Spirit, viewing gift-operations of the Spirit as a compulsive possessions, negation the will (14:32). Paul responds to this problem by showing the need for varied and multiple manifestations of the Spirit (ch.12); the need for loving and unselfish motives in these manifestations (ch.13); and the need for self-control and for keeping an orderly, edifying manner in corporate services (ch.14).

(1 Cor.12:2,3) - Paul introduces three guiding principles that distinguish the ways of the Holy Spirit:1) - The principle conscious control. Unlike Paganism, the power of the Holy Spirit does not drive into wild compulsive acts. His gentle dove-like ministry strengthens human personality. He empowers; He does not overpower. 2) - The principle that Christ is glorified. All manifestation of the Spirit will harmonize with the truth about Jesus. 3) - The principle of creedal faith. The main work of the Holy Spirit is to bring people under the lordship of Jesus.

(1 Cor.12:4-6) - The three categories named in these verses coupled with the Trinity show the broad diversity, wet essential unity, in the manifestation of the Spirit. Unity does not make the Spirit Uniform. The Holy Spirit is not an impersonal power, and His gifts do not spring from a human source; it is the work of God. Gifts are from the great gift, the Holy Spirit; ministries are modeled by the main minister, Christ (the Lord); and the works of the Spirit come from the chief worker, God the Father.

(1 Cor.12:7) - Paul identifies a Spiritual Gift as a supernatural ability bestowed on an individual by the Holy Spirit, not as a heightened natural ability. Thus, each gift is (manifestation of the Spirit), that is visible evidence of His activity. The Holy Spirit bestows the gift to whom He wills as the occasion recommends from the divine viewpoint.

(1 Cor.12:8-11) - These nine gifts specify the varied distribution necessary for the full manifestation of the Spirit:

(The Word Of Wisdom) is a spiritual utterance at a given moment (Through the Spirit), supernaturally disclosing the mind, purpose, and way of God as applied to a specific situation.

(The Word Of Knowledge) is a supernatural revelation of information pertaining to a person or an event, given for a specific purpose, usually having to do with an immediate need.

(The Gift Of Faith) is a unique form of faith that goes beyond natural faith and saving faith. It supernatural trusts and does not doubt with reference to the specific matters involved.

(The Gifts Of Healings) are those healings that God performs supernaturally (By The Spirit). The plural suggests that as there are many sicknesses and diseases, the gift is related to healing of many disorders.

(The Working Of Miracles) is a manifestation of power beyond the ordinary course of natural law. It is a divine enablement to do something that could be done naturally.

(Prophecy) is a divine disclosure on behalf of the Spirit. an edifying revelation of the Spirit for the moment (14:3), a sudden insight of the Spirit, prompting exhortation or comfort (14:3, 30).

(Discerning Of Spirits) is the ability to discern the Spirit world, and especially to detect the true source of circumstances or motives of people.

(Different Kinds Of Tongues) is the gift of speaking supernaturally in a language not known to the individual. The plural allows different forms, possibly harmonizing the spoken languages of (Acts.2:4-6) and the unknown transrational utterances in Corinthians, designed particularly for praying and singing in the Spirit, mostly for a private worship (14:14-19).

(The Interpretation Of Tongues) is the gift of rendering the transrational (but not irrational ) message of the Spirit meaningful to others when exercised in public. It is not the translation of a foreign language. Note: None of the Gifts require a "public" setting, although each may and should be welcomed in corporate gatherings..........Joey.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by joeycastaneda56

.........................<<>> Rick when you made the statement that your (Beloved Apostolic Pentecostal Watchman Brother Baxter) would (Frown) at the Nazarene Church because they are not Filled with Holy Spirit. In other words you were stating that they were not saved. But then you come back and change your statement and say this.

About Churches like the Nazarene. This is error because the signs are not a requirement of (Salvation) or proof of one Salvation. That is why I wanted your statement it in writing. So you can't change your (Statement).

I am working on a statement about the Gifts and being filled with the Holy Spirit..............................Joey

Joey I don`t appriciate you putting words into my mouth or falsely accusing me of changing a statement.

My views have been publicly documented via my Yahoo group for about a year and a half and are quite consistent and unchanging.

I stated that I love Brother Baxter and I did discuss to a small degree his opinion. I didn`t state what my view is until later.

I did not state that Nazarenes are not saved nor did I imply such a thing. That is absolute fabrication on your part and I expect a full retraction.

Do you have integrity Joey? I am starting to question it at this point.

[joeycastaneda56]

Originally Posted by Rick

Joey I don`t appriciate you putting words into my mouth or falsely accusing me of changing a statement.

My views have been publicly documented via my Yahoo group for about a year and a half and are quite consistent and unchanging.

I stated that I love Brother Baxter and I did discuss to a small degree his opinion. I didn`t state what my view is until later.

I did not state that Nazarenes are not saved nor did I imply such a thing. That is absolute fabrication on your part and I expect a full retraction.

Do you have integrity Joey? I am starting to question it at this point.

...................I am sorry for the misunderstanding. As long as we can both agree that Christians that are not filled with the Holy Spirit, are going to make Heaven their home. Then I hope things will be all right between us. Rick, I don't want to be your enemy. I do hope we can be friends in Christ. We both know the Word of God very well. We could use that to help people understand the true Gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I don't want to be another Willie. I just want to be Joey...........Joey.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by joeycastaneda56

...................I am sorry for the misunderstanding. As long as we can both agree that Christians that are not filled with the Holy Spirit, are going to make Heaven their home. Then I hope things will be all right between us. Rick, I don't want to be your enemy. I do hope we can be friends in Christ. We both know the Word of God very well. We could use that to help people understand the true Gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I don't want to be another Willie. I just want to be Joey...........Joey.

That`s fine Joey. But I hope that you can see that manupulating and misrepresenting what another brother has said isn`t the right thing for a child of God to do.

You have not answered the questions I have posed to you and that is fine as well if that is your choice.

As far as someone going to heaven without the Holy Spirit that is contrary to the scriptures. So obviously I cannot agree with that.


Romans 8:8-10

8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

[joeycastaneda56]

Originally Posted by Rick

That`s fine Joey. But I hope that you can see that manupulating and misrepresenting what another brother has said isn`t the right thing for a child of God to do.

You have not answered the questions I have posed to you and that is fine as well if that is your choice.

As far as someone going to heaven without the Holy Spirit that is contrary to the scriptures. So obviously I cannot agree with that.


Romans 8:8-10

8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

.............<<>> Rick in the, (Trinity) This means the union of three person, the Father,the Son, and the Holy Spirit in one (unified) Godhead or divinity, so that all three persons are one in unity and eternal substance, (But) three separate and distinct person as to individuality. (John.5:7-8; Dan.7:9-14; Matt.3:16-17; Acts.7:56-59).

(The Body, Soul And Spirit) God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, each angel and man and every separate person in the universe has a personal (Body, Soul, and Spirit), which are separate and distinct from all others, as defined below.

(1) - The (Body) of any being is the outward form or house in which is soul and spirit dwell (Gen.2:7, 19: John.5:28-29; Matt.27:51; 1 Cor.15:34-58; Jas.2:26; 1 Thess.5:23; Heb.10:5-10).

(2) - The (Soul) is that invisible part of all living beings that feels - the seat of his affections, emotions, passions, and desires, and which gives him self-consciousness and make him a sentient being (Lev.23:43; 1 Sam.22:2; 36; 2 Sam.13:39; 2 Kings.4:27; 23:3; Ps.107:5, 9, 18, 26: Mark.12:33; Matt.26:38; John.12:27; Heb.10:38; Heb.4:12).

(3) - The (Spirit) is that invisible part of all living beings that knows - the seat of his intellect, mind, and will, and that which gives him self-determination and makes him a free moral agent and a rational being (1 Cor.2:11; Matt.26:41; Exodus.35:21; Job.38:8, 18; Prov.20:27; Phil.1:27; Heb.4:12; Jas.2:26; 1 Thess.5:23).

The Bible teaches that unsaved men do not have God's Spirit in them (Rom.8:9-16; 1 Cor.12:13; 2 Cor.1-22; 6:16-18; Gal.3:2-5; 4:6; Eph.1:13; 2 Tim.1:7; 1 John.4:4-6) ; That Gods Spirit is not received until the (New Birth) John.3:1-5; 14:17; Rom.8:9-16).

Rick, when a person asks for forgiveness for their (Sins) they ask Jesus to come into their (Heart) thus the new birth (being born again by the Spirit of Jesus only) Being baptized with the Holy Spirit is a totally different step in your walk with God. The Bible also states that whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. No where in the Bible does it state that only those who call upon the Lord and filled with the Holy Spirit shall be saved. And concerning the other questions from your post I will get to them when I can......Joey.

[Rick]

[quote=joeycastaneda56;733].............<<>> Rick in the, (Trinity) This means the union of three person, the Father,the Son, and the Holy Spirit in one (unified) Godhead or divinity, so that all three persons are one in unity and eternal substance, (But) three separate and distinct person as to individuality. (John.5:7-8; Dan.7:9-14; Matt.3:16-17; Acts.7:56-59).

( The word Trinity is a man made term invented by early Catholics. Your man made definition is correct but it certainly isn`t scripture. I reviewed your verses and I don`t see anything about God being a Trinity anywhere in any of them.)


The Bible teaches that unsaved men do not have God's Spirit in them (Rom.8:9-16; 1 Cor.12:13; 2 Cor.1-22; 6:16-18; Gal.3:2-5; 4:6; Eph.1:13; 2 Tim.1:7; 1 John.4:4-6) ; That Gods Spirit is not received until the (New Birth) John.3:1-5; 14:17; Rom.8:9-16).

( Since you acknowledge what scripture says what prevents you from believing it?)

Rick, when a person asks for forgiveness for their (Sins) they ask Jesus to come into their (Heart) thus the new birth (being born again by the Spirit of Jesus only) Being baptized with the Holy Spirit is a totally different step in your walk with God. The Bible also states that whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. No where in the Bible does it state that only those who call upon the Lord and filled with the Holy Spirit shall be saved.

( Do you know what shall be saved means? It`s future tense not present tense. When a person repents they meet the condition for being forgiven and saved. But the forgiving and the saving doesn`t happen until God recieves them through the Holy Spirit. There is no salvation without the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit are one and same. The Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of Christ in some places because Father God sends the Holy Spirit in the name of Christ as Christ declared that He would.)

[joeycastaneda56]

[quote=Rick;736]

Originally Posted by joeycastaneda56

.............<<>> Rick in the, (Trinity) This means the union of three person, the Father,the Son, and the Holy Spirit in one (unified) Godhead or divinity, so that all three persons are one in unity and eternal substance, (But) three separate and distinct person as to individuality. (John.5:7-8; Dan.7:9-14; Matt.3:16-17; Acts.7:56-59).

( The word Trinity is a man made term invented by early Catholics. Your man made definition is correct but it certainly isn`t scripture. I reviewed your verses and I don`t see anything about God being a Trinity anywhere in any of them.)


The Bible teaches that unsaved men do not have God's Spirit in them (Rom.8:9-16; 1 Cor.12:13; 2 Cor.1-22; 6:16-18; Gal.3:2-5; 4:6; Eph.1:13; 2 Tim.1:7; 1 John.4:4-6) ; That Gods Spirit is not received until the (New Birth) John.3:1-5; 14:17; Rom.8:9-16).

( Since you acknowledge what scripture says what prevents you from believing it?)

Rick, when a person asks for forgiveness for their (Sins) they ask Jesus to come into their (Heart) thus the new birth (being born again by the Spirit of Jesus only) Being baptized with the Holy Spirit is a totally different step in your walk with God. The Bible also states that whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. No where in the Bible does it state that only those who call upon the Lord and filled with the Holy Spirit shall be saved.

( Do you know what shall be saved means? It`s future tense not present tense. When a person repents they meet the condition for being forgiven and saved. But the forgiving and the saving doesn`t happen until God recieves them through the Holy Spirit. There is no salvation without the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit are one and same. The Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of Christ in some places because Father God sends the Holy Spirit in the name of Christ as Christ declared that He would.)

.....................<<>> I am working on a post on the (Importance of the Three Baptisms) and what they mean. Here is something to ponder on until I come back to post my work. (God) says (In His Word) I am not a man that (I) should lie.

(The King on the Cross).
One of the criminals said to Jesus, Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom. And Jesus said to him, " Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise". He didn't tell him, sorry I can't take you because you have not been Baptized in (Water, the Word of God and the Holy Spirit. JC.