Hope Beyond Hell?

[Rick]

Does eternal punishment deny God's justice?



Some of the proponents of Universalism maintain that eternal
punishment cannot be true because if God eternally damned someone, it
would mean that the punishment would never be complete. Therefore,
God is not satisfied, His judgment is not realized, and justice is
never accomplished.
The first problem with this objection is the idea that God's
eternal judgment necessarily must have an end. If it is eternal
punishment, then it wouldn't end. "And these will go away into
eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life," (Matt.
25:46). Not all judgments and punishments end. Consider a person
who is executed for a capital crime. His punishment is death. In
effect, it is a judgment that is eternal. The judgment is completed
by the accomplishment of a sentence: execution. The sentence has an
eternal duration which will not end and at the same time the judgment
has been accomplished. The judgment, in and of itself, is eternal by
definition and this does not mean that it is not satisfied or
realized. The eternal sentence of death, has been accomplished and
is still in effect. Therefore, we can see that a valid punishment
with an eternal result can be a reality.
Second, it is not logically necessary that an eternal punishment
upon a sinner be an insufficient or non-accomplished judgment. It
is just as logical to say that God's infinite justice is properly
accomplished with an infinite punishment. After all, an offense of
infinite value would require an infinite punishment.
Third, it would be an injustice to God's infinite righteousness
and holiness to have the sinner's punishment be terminated. Of
course, I am not here speaking of discipline, where the Lord
chastises a person and welcomes him back into fellowship. I am
speaking here of damnation, that pronouncement upon a sinner who is
not covered in the blood of Christ. As I said above, it follows that
if God is infinite and the sinner has offended God, then that is an
infinite offense. If judgment upon the sinner regarding his
sinfulness were temporal, then it means that a sinner's suffering is
sufficient to appease an infinite God. That would be unjust since,
Gal. 2:21 says, "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if
righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."
Paul is saying that if we could be please God by what we do (suffer),
then Christ died needlessly.
Fourth, the universalists have stated that though the
unrepentant sinners are truly forgiven in Christ, they must
be "punished," "purified," "corrected," for a period of time in the
after life before they are ready to be admitted into the eternal life
of realized forgiveness. This is a very dangerous teaching because
it strikes at the very heart of the atonement of Christ. For a
person to suffer the judgment of God because of his sin until he is
found worthy to be with God is to state that the atonement is
insufficient and must be completed through the suffering of the
sinner. This is blasphemous and must be avoided at all costs.
It should be plain to see that the universalist position is
incorrect.

[Rick]

What is Unitarianism?


Unitarianism is the belief that God exists in one person, not
three. It is a denial of the doctrine of the Trinity as well as the
full divinity of Jesus. Therefore, it is not Christian. There are
several groups that fall under this umbrella: Jehovah's Witnesses,
Christadelphianism, The Way International, etc. Another term for
this type of belief is called monarchianism.
In the context of universalism, the Unitarianism discussed here
is that belief that denies the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the
personhood of the Holy Spirit, eternal punishment, and the vicarious
atonement of Jesus. Unitarian universalists use many biblical
concepts and terms but with non-biblical meanings. Unitarianism is
not Christian.
There is a group known as the Unitarian Universalists
Association. This denomination which was formed in 1961 in the
United States when the American Unitarian Association and the
Universalist Church of America merged. Its membership is around
175,000.
The General Convention of the Unitarian Universalists formulated
the five principles of the Universalist Faith in 1899.

The Universal Fatherhood of God
The spiritual authority and leadership of His Son Jesus Christ
The trustworthiness of the Bible as containing a revelation from God
The certainty of just retribution for sin
The final harmony of all souls with God
Additional beliefs generally held by Unitarian Universalists
are:
Salvation is by grace through faith and not by works in any way.
Jesus became the Son of God at His baptism.
The Holy Spirit is not a person, does not have a will, etc.
There now is and will be rewards and punishments according to one's
actions but this does not consist of the traditional doctrine of
hell.
Human reason and experience should be the final authority in
determining spiritual truth.
This last point, "Human reason and experience should be the
final authority in determining spiritual truth," is perhaps the most
revealing of the character of Unitarian Universalists. Instead of
God and his word being the final authority on truth and error, or
right and wrong, Unitarian Universalists subject God and his word to
their understanding, feeling, and reason. This is exemplified in the
following quote obtain from the official Unitarian Universalist
website at http://uua.org/. This was found under the heading
Unitarian Universalists say:

"I want a religion that respects the differences between people and
affirms every person as an individual."
"I want a church that values children, that welcomes them on their
own terms—a church they are eager to attend on Sunday morning."
"I want a congregation that cherishes freedom and encourages open
dialogue on questions of faith, one in which it is okay to change
your mind."
"I want a religious community that affirms spiritual exploration and
reason as ways of finding truth."
"I want a church that acts locally and thinks globally on the great
issues of our time—world peace; women's rights; racial justice;
homelessness; gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender rights; and
protection of the environment."
Notice that each of the five statements begins with "I want..."
This is not the humble attitude of one indwelt by the Holy Spirit of
God. It is not the attitude of one who wants to put God first.
It can plainly be seen that this is a religion based upon
personal hopes and desires and not upon the the Bible.
I cannot help but think of the five "I will's" listed in Isaiah
14:13-14:

"But you said in your heart,
I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne above the stars of God,
I will sit on the mount of assembly in the recesses of the north.
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.'

Many commentators believe that these five "I wills" were uttered
by Satan as he sought to be exalted and equal to God. They reflect
the arrogance of the evil one as his heart was filled with pride and
put his own will before God's. He had his desires before God's.
But notice what Isaiah says in the next verse:

"Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol, to the recesses of
the pit."

Jesus said, "Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth
speaks," (Matt. 12:34). We can see that the Unitarian Universalists
speak first from their own desires, according to their own wisdom,
and not according to the wisdom of God. What does God say about this?

"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God," ( 1 Cor.
3:19).

[Rick]

Matt. 25:46 and Universalism

"And these will go away into eternal punishment,
but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt. 25:46).

The universalists do not believe in eternal punishment.
Universalists teach that all will eventually be saved through the
atonement of Jesus. Therefore, when the Bible speaks of eternal
punishment and hell fire, etc., the universalist interprets it to
mean an inner sorrow due to loss of reward and/or they maintain that
the word "eternal" does not mean "without end."
In Greek, the word "eternal" is the word "", or "aionion." This
word occurs in two places in Matt. 25:46: Let's look at it again in
a Greek Interlinear form:



The exact same word "," "aionion" is used to describe the
duration of punishment as well as of the life of the righteous -
those who are saved. The same word describes both conditions. If it
means one thing in the first part of this sentence, then it means the
same thing in the second part since they are both in the same context
and both are describing time-duration of the states of the unsaved
and the saved. If the punishment is eternal, then so is the life.
Likewise, if, as the universalist says, the punishment is not
eternal, then neither is the life. You can't pick and choose how the
word is applied in this verse to suit your own theology.
But the universalists do just that. They want to have Jesus
say that eternal life is forever but eternal punishment is not --
even though Jesus used the same word, in the same breath, to describe
them both. It just doesn't fit their preconceived ideas.

Let's translate it the universalist way....

The universalists are fond of translating Bible verses and
transliterating a particular word. So, I will use their style in the
following translation:

And these will go away into aionion punishment,
but the righteous into aionion life.1

Or, to take a little liberty, it could be translated as,

And these will go away into non "aionion" punishment,
but the righteous into "aionion" life."

I inserted the word "non" here to reflect what the universalists
intend the word "aionion" to mean when describing punishment -- but
not life. Notice it isn't there when describing life because the
Universalist believes that the life of the righteous is without end:
eternal. This is the kind of thing the universalist must do in order
to justify his position. It is clearly false and demonstrates an
intrusion into the text of a theological perspective. This is
something Jehovah's Witnesses do when they "translated" the Bible.
They changed words to make them agree with their theology.
Nevertheless, another translation according to universalist
presuppositions might be:

"And these will go away into non-eternal punishment, but the
righteous into eternal life."

But, the universalists state that "aionion" is an age, a period
of time that can have a finish. They would then answer this
objection and say that punishment is for a time and so is life, but
that both of these are for an "aionion" period and after each period
is another. In the case of the aionion punishment, it would end and
then after that, they would have eternal life. Likewise those
possessing eternal life already in the aionion "age" will continue to
have it in the next age. The only problem is that that isn't what
the text is saying. Jesus isn't setting up a time duration
argument. He is telling us that there is eternal life and eternal
death.
The universalists have constructed a multi-age scenario to fit
their perspective. In so doing, they have allowed for the occurrence
of salvation after death, another teaching that is unbiblical. Heb.
9:27 says, "And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and
after this comes judgment," (NASB). The judgment comes from God and
is upon the sinner. The universalist would have some sort of a
judgment that leads to punishment that ends and then there is eternal
salvation in the afterlife. In so teaching, they have ignored the
translations of countless scholars and adopted those interpretations
that agree with them in order to suit their theological bias. This
is something they do very frequently, and with a vengence since they
often turn a harsh tone towards those who do not agree with them.
I hope you can see the inconsistency of translating and
interpreting Matt. 25:46 any other way than stating that the
punishment is eternal as is the life of the righteous.

_______________

1. As a comment, with this type of translation, it is easy to
confuse what the text is really saying because the reader is not
familiar with the Greek word "aionion." The Universalists often do
this: partially translate a verse leaving a transliterated Greek
word or two in place of English words. They can then tell you what
the word "really means." This can be misleading.

[Rick]

Mark 3:28-29 and Universalism

The universalist states that there is no unforgivable sin
because all people who have ever lived will ultimately be reconciled
to God; in other words, all sins from all people who have ever lived
will be forgiven. However, if there were a sin that will never be
forgiven, then Universalism would be proven wrong.
Mark 3:28-29 are important verses in showing that there is an
unforgivable sin.

"Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and
whatever blasphemies they utter; 29 but whoever blasphemes against
the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal
sin" (NASB).

The Greek Interlinear of Mark 3:28-29 is as follows:



Verses 28 and 29 are in contrast to each other. Verse 28 says
that all sins shall be forgiven. Verse 29 clarifies the statement
and flatly says that there is a sin that "never has forgiveness, but
is guilty of an eternal sin." This sin is Blasphemy of the Holy
Spirit -- which is stating that Jesus did His miracles by the power
of the devil.
Verse 29 has the contrasting preposition "but", Greek "de." The
use of the word "but" is showing that there is a contrast, or an
exception to the previous statement. All sins are forgivable, but
blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is not. That is why the word "but" is
there, to show that there is a qualification, an exception to the
first statement.
So, how do the universalists answer this verse? They do it in
two ways. First, they say that the word "aiona", "age" can mean a
period of time that ends. Now, this is true sometimes and not
others. There are verses that use the word "aiona" that can refer to
non-eternal duration (John 8:35; Luke 1:55) and there are verses that
use it and mean eternal duration (Matt. 21:19; Mark 11:14; John 4:14;
6:51; 6:58, etc.). It is the context that determines the meaning of
the word. But it is big mistake to think that "aiona" always means a
finite time.
It is a conjecture on the Universalists part that the
word "age", in Mark 3:29, means a definite period of time that will
end. But that isn't the case. As I said, Jesus is contrasting the
second statement (unforgivable sin) with the first statement
(forgivable sin).
Second, the Universalist will go to Matt. 12:32 which says,

And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be
forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it
shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to
come."

They state that "the age to come" is the 1000 year reign of
Christ which will end. Therefore, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will
be forgiven after the 1000 year reign. They then state that Mark
3:29 must be interpreted in light of Matt. 12:32.
Granted, we must look at all the verses on a subject in order to
get an accurate understanding what is said. But, the logic of the
Universalist is wrong. Here is why.

Mark 3:29 states that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (BHS) will never
be forgiven.

This verse clearly states the impossibility of forgiveness of this
sin.

Matt 12:32 states that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will not be
forgiven "in this age or the age to come."

If Matt 12:32 is interpreted to mean that BHS will be forgiven, then
that contradicts Mark 3:29 which states it will not be forgiven.

If Matt 12:32 is interpreted to mean that BHS will not be forgiven,
then it does not contradict Mark 3:29.

Therefore, the only way to harmonize both verses is to say that
Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is unforgivable.

If Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is unforgivable, then Universalism is
wrong.

A comparison of translations

Instead of trying to define the Greek text ad nauseum explaining
how and why words are translated, I've simply supplied ten Bible
translations along with a commonly used Universalist translation of
these two verses.

Bible Version
Mark 3:28-29

NASB "Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men,
and whatever blasphemies they utter; 29 but whoever blasphemes
against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an
eternal sin"
NIV I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be
forgiven them. 29 But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will
never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."
NKJV "Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of
men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; 29"but he who
blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is
subject to eternal condemnation"
KJV Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons
of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29But
he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never
forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
RSV "Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men,
and whatever blasphemies they utter; 29 but whoever blasphemes
against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an
eternal sin"
1901 ASV Verily I say unto you, All their sins shall be forgiven unto
the sons of men, and their blasphemies wherewith soever they shall
blaspheme: 29but whosoever shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit
hath never forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin:
Phillips "Believe me, all men's sins can be forgiven and all their
blasphemies. But there can never be any forgiveness for blasphemy
against the Holy Spirit. That is an eternal sin."
Darby Verily I say unto you, that all sins shall be forgiven to the
sons of men, and all the injurious speeches [with] which they may
speak injuriously; 29 but whosoever shall speak injuriously against
the Holy Spirit, to eternity has no forgiveness; but lies under the
guilt of an everlasting sin;
BWE `I tell you the truth. All wrong things that people do and say
about anyone will be forgiven. 29 But people who say wrong things
against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven. A person who does
that will be punished for ever.'
Weymouth
"In solemn truth I tell you that all their sins may be pardoned to
the sons of men, and all their blasphemies, however they may have
blasphemed; 29but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, he
remains for ever unabsolved: he is guilty of a sin of the Ages."
Concordant
(Universalist translation) 28 "Verily, I am saying to you that all
shall be pardoned the sons of mankind, the penalties of the sins and
the blasphemies, whatsoever they should be blaspheming, 29 yet
whoever should be blaspheming against the holy spirit is having no
pardon for the eon, but is liable to the eonian penalty for the sin" -
-

First of all, the ten translations above, all done by very
reputable scholars, all say the same thing: Blasphemy of the Holy
Spirit will not be forgiven -- ever!
If you notice, the Concordant version (done by Universalists)
did not translate the Greek words "eon" (age) and "eonian" (eternal)
into English, but left them transliterated. In fact, the word in
Greek is not "eon" but "aiona."
All other words are in plain English accept for these two.
Why? I believe it is because they wanted to influence the way the
text sounds and is interpreted. By not translating the words, and by
telling you that the word "eon" only means a duration of time with an
ending, then, the universalists can get you to accept the idea that
Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is forgivable and that their theology is
correct. There is just one problem. It isn't.

[Rick]

1 Tim. 2:4 and 2 Pet. 3:9. Is it God's will that all people be saved?

"This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who
desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the
truth"
(1 Tim. 2:3-4).
"The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but
is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to
come to repentance" (2 Pet. 3:9).
To begin with, the answer to the question "Is it God's will that
all people be saved?" must be "Yes," because that it what the Bible
says. But does that mean that all will be saved? The universalists
believe so. They will appeal to 1 Tim. 2:3-4 and 2 Pet. 3:9 combined
with other verses where God says He will accomplish what He desires.
They then say that since God says He will accomplish all His desires
and He desires all to be saved, then all will be saved.

". . . and I [God] will accomplish all My good pleasure," (Isaiah
46:10).
"But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases," (Psalm
115:3).
"Whatever the Lord pleases, He does," (Psalm 135:6).
This is a straight-forward approach, but it is also very
simplistic and incomplete because it does not take into account all
of scripture relating to the subject of God's desire. Instead, the
Universalists "proof-text" their way into a foregone conclusion by
picking and choosing certain scriptures and combining them to form an
implied conclusion. This is how error is born and it is not good
theology. Instead, the proper thing to do is to look at all of
scripture on a topic and draw conclusions from the whole, not the
part. I will gather a broader scope of scripture dealing with this
subject and attempt to show that God's desire is not always
accomplished and, therefore, the claim of the universalist that the
above verses prove that all will be saved, is in error.
To begin with, are God's desires always accomplished? No, they
are not. God's desire is that people do what is right and not
sin: "To do righteousness and justice is desired by the Lord rather
than sacrifice," (Prov. 21:3). But people still sin in spite of
God's stated desire. Was it the desire of God that Adam and Eve
rebel? No. Was it God's will that David commit adultery? No. Yet,
they did the very thing God did not want. God commands that all
people repent (Acts 17:30); but not all do. Clearly, God's will is
not always done.
In theology, when examining this issue of God's will and His
allowance of sin, we distinguish between what is called God's perfect
will and His permissive will. In His perfect will, He desires that
all refrain from sin. But in His permissive will, He allows sin to
exist. In this sense, He has two wills regarding sin. He desires
that sin not exist because it is contrary to His nature, yet He wills
that it does by making provision for it in His sovereign plan. This
does not mean that God brought sin into existence. It means that He
simply permitted it by allowing the fall. He then uses it, and other
sins, for His glory and purpose. Please recall the account of
Joseph's brothers who sinned by selling him into slavery and then
lying to their father about it. After many years when the family was
reunited, Joseph said, "And as for you, you meant evil against me,
but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present
result, to preserve many people alive" (Gen. 50:20). God meant it
for good? How could that be if God is only passively allowing things
to occur? Here, Joseph states that God had a purpose in their sin.
Though God does not want sin, He made provision for it in His divine
plan. Consider also how evil people conspired against Jesus to bring
Him to death. Was this God's plan that they do this?

"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy
servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate,
along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever
Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur," (Acts 4:27-28).
Do you see how God predestined Herod and Pontius Pilate to carry
out His will? Didn't they sin in condemning Jesus? Yes! Did God
predestine them to do what He planned? Yes! Did God make them sin?
No, for God does not tempt anyone (James 1:13). Yet, God, in His
sovereignty predestined them to do what they did.
God is in control of history and it goes where He directs it.
Though He does not desire that people sin, He makes room for it.
Therefore, we can plainly see that God can desire one thing and even
ordain another by giving it a place in His sovereign plan.
So, how can anyone assert that based on 1 Tim. 2:3-4 and 2 Pet.
3:9 combined with Isaiah 46:10; Psalm 115:3, and Psalm 135:6 above,
that all will be saved because that is God's desire and God's will is
always done? They cannot. God can desire all be saved, but not
ordain that all are by making provision in His plan for their
damnation: "The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even
the wicked for the day of evil," (Prov. 16:4).
Again, simply because God states that He desires all people to
be saved does not mean that all will be saved. This is particularly
important when we notice that God elects people (Matt. 24:24,31; Mark
13:20; Rom. 8:33), predestines them (Rom. 8:29-30; Eph. 1:1-11),
appoints them to eternal life (Acts 13:48), and grants that they
believe (Phil. 1:29). We must ask why doesn't God elect all,
predestine all, appoint all, or grant that all believe when He has
the power to do so? Is it because God is incapable of carrying out
His will? Or is there something greater than God at work? Of course
not. God is in absolute control. He can desire one thing (that
people not sin), yet ordain another (plan that sin exist in the
world). Likewise, God can desire that all be saved, yet not ordain
that they are.

What Does God Want?

Some will object to the claim that God sometimes wants one thing
and yet does another. They would assert that this would be a
contradiction. But it is not since God has obviously done this. Is
it a contradiction when a judge wants to show mercy to all people but
orders that criminals be punished? Is it a contradiction when the
judge says to a murderer, "You shall not murder!" but, according to
the law, sentences him to death? No. Though the desire and action
be different, there is no contradiction at all. The judge is under
obligation to keep the Law. . . and so is God. He must remain true
to His revealed Law which is a reflection of His divine character.
After all, God is just and must punish sin.
To further illustrate the point that God can ordain something
different than what He desires, please consider the scriptures
below.


What God Desires What God Arranges
"This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who
desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the
truth," (1 Tim. 2:3-4).
"The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but
is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to
come to repentance," (2 Pet. 3:9).

"just as it is written, 'God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes to
see not and ears to hear not, down to this very day,'" (Rom. 11:8).
"And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the
kingdom of God; but those who are outside get everything in parables,
12in order that while seeing, they may see and not perceive; and
while hearing, they may hear and not understand lest they return and
be forgiven," (Mark 4:11-12).

We can see that God says He does not wish any to perish. But,
we can also see that God gave Israel eyes to not see with and ears to
not hear with. Likewise, Jesus, who is God in flesh, purposely spoke
to people in parables so they would not perceive and repent (Mark
4:11-12). If God wants all saved, why would He arrange it so people
were blinded and prevented from seeing? Some will say that the
people did this to themselves. But that is not what the text says.
Clearly, God is the one performing the actions in preventing them to
see. In this case, He desires one thing and does another.
Does God want pain and suffering in the world? The obvious
answer is no. God created Adam and Eve and put them in a perfect
world without pain, without suffering, and without loss. That is
God's desire because that is the way God made things in the
beginning. Yet, we have pain, suffering, and loss in the world.
Why? Because that is the nature of our sinful system -- and God
permitted it. But are we to say that God is not in control? Again,
no. In fact, God causes some of the very things we believe He does
not want.

"And the Lord said to him, 'Who has made man's mouth? Or who makes
him dumb or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?'"
(Exodus 4:11).
"If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?" (Amos
3:6).
"The One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and
creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these," (Isaiah 45:7).
"Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has
commanded it? 38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High That both
good and ill go forth?" (Lam. 3:37-38).
"The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked
for the day of evil," (Prov. 16:4).
Can God want one thing and and yet specifically accomplish
something else? Obviously the answer is yes. Let's look at some
more verses.


What God Desires What God Arranges
"And the master said to the slave, `Go out into the highways and
along the hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be
filled," (Luke 14:23).
Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says, "Today if you hear His
voice, 8Do not harden your hearts as when they provoked Me, As in the
day of trial in the wilderness," (Heb. 3:7).
"And for this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so
that they might believe what is false," (2 Thess. 2:11).
"And the Lord said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt see that you
perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your
power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people
go," (Exodus 4:21).
"So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He
desires," (Rom. 9:18).

Why would God compel people to come into His house so that it
can be filled and yet send a deluding influence upon the same
people? Are not those people in 2 Thessalonians, at the time of the
Antichrist, the same people included in the highways and hedges?
Does not God compel all to enter into His house regardless of when
and where they are in history? Is it not God's desire to save all?
Yes it is. Yet, God actually sends a deluding influence on people
and hardens the hearts of others. He desires one thing yet sometimes
does another. This is both challenging and fascinating. Why would
God do such a thing? The answer lies in Scripture.
God is in Control

God is in control of all things and is bringing history to the
prophetically determined destiny to which He has aimed it. He
hardens some and softens others. He arranges things so that battles
occur, people are destroyed, lives are changed, nations moved, and
people saved. All of this is done in accordance with His divine
plan. In fact, it is done because He has a divine plan. Please
consider the following.

"this Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge
of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him
to death," (Acts 2:23).
"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy
servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate,
along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28to do whatever
Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur," (Acts 4:27-28).
God did not cause the people who crucified Jesus to sin. But,
He sure used their sin and He predestined all of it to occur. He
used the sins of Herod and Pilate along with the Gentiles to do His
divine will. In fact, God anointed them to do what they did. Why?
To carry out His purpose and His plan to bring His Son to the cross,
to save sinners, and to bring glory to Himself.
Some may object and say that God only knew what the evil people
were going to do and simply used it. But, that is not what the
scripture says. Besides, God has the ability to change the hearts of
people: "The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of
the Lord; He turns it wherever He wishes" (Prov. 21:1). This means
that man's will is subject to God.
Then again, some may say that God must not violate people's
freedom and will let them sin. But in response, examine Gen. 20:6
where God kept Abimelech from sleeping with Abraham's wife: "Then
God said to him in the dream, "Yes, I know that in the integrity of
your heart you have done this, and I also kept you from sinning
against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her." God prevented
Abimelech from sinning. It was Abimelech's desire to enter Abraham's
wife, yet God prevented it. God can and does control people's hearts
and actions so that they will accomplish His purpose. He does this
sovereignty and He does it without causing people to sin. He can
even make someone's heart hard for the purpose of carrying out His
plan.

"But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his
land; for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart
obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today,"
(Deut. 2:30).
The NIV, NKJV, RSV, KJV, and NASB all state that it was God who
hardened Sihon's heart -- not strengthened it towards its tendency.
"For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts, to meet Israel in
battle in order that he might utterly destroy them, that they might
receive no mercy, but that he might destroy them, just as the Lord
had commanded Moses," (Joshua 11:20).
The NIV says "it was the LORD himself who hardened their hearts."
The RSV says "it was the Lord's doing."
In Deuteronomy 2, the Lord told Moses to tell Sihon King of
Heshbon to let the Israelites pass. But, we see that God
deliberately hardened King Sihon's heart1 so that they could be
delivered into Israel's hands and destroyed. We see in Joshua, that
it was "of God" to harden the Canaanites so that they might be
destroyed. Why? Because God had a greater plan and purpose than
showing them mercy. What is that plan? I believe God was arranging
history to lead to the ultimate goal of Christ's crucifixion,
resurrection, and return, along with the redemption of God's people.
This is the divine plan that God has ordained. God is in control and
He has a purpose that He has revealed in Scripture. Please consider
Rev. 17:16-17 as further support for this.
"And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the
harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh
and will burn her up with fire. 17 "For God has put it in their
hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by
giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God should be
fulfilled.
In Revelation. 17:16, God put it into the hearts of people to
rebel so that His prophetic word could be fulfilled. God was, is,
and will continue to control events in order to accomplish His divine
plan. He is bringing these people to a place of being destroyed and
it isn't simply because they are rebellious. It is because "God has
put it in their hearts to execute His purpose . . .until the words of
God should be fulfilled"!
But, some will claim that God cannot put such things in people's
hearts -- in spite of the verses shown above. They will quote
scripture where God says He does not desire the death of the wicked
and, therefore, could not be purposely doing such a thing.

"For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares
the Lord God. "Therefore, repent and live," (Ezekiel 18:32).
"Say to them, `As I live!' declares the Lord God, `I take no pleasure
in the death of the wicked . . . (Ezekiel 33:11).
We clearly see that God does not take pleasure in the death of
the wicked. That is, it is not His desire that even the wicked die.
Yet, they do and to further complicate things, as we have seen in the
scriptures above, He even hardens them (Exo. 4:24-25; Rom. 9:18),
deludes them (2 Thess. 2:11), and puts it into their hearts to rebel
(Deut. 2:30; Rev. 17:16-17). And if that weren't enough, take a look
at the following:

"And it shall come about that as the Lord delighted over you to
prosper you, and multiply you, so the Lord will delight over you to
make you perish and destroy you. . ." (Deut. 28:63).
The word "delight" here is the word "soos" in Hebrew and it means to
exult, rejoice, display joy.
"If one man sins against another, God will mediate for him; but if a
man sins against the Lord, who can intercede for him?" But they would
not listen to the voice of their father, for the Lord desired to put
them to death," (1 Sam. 2:25).
The words "desired" here is the same Hebrew word, "chaphets," used in
Ezekiel 18:32 and 33:11 ("pleasure") above. It means "to delight in,
take pleasure in, desire, be pleased with. It was the sons of Eli
who would not listen to their father. Why? Because the Lord desired
to put them to death. In other words, they would not listen because
God desired to put them to death.
Likewise, the word "chaphets" occurs in Isaiah 53:10 where it
says, "But the Lord was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to
grief."
In the above verses you can see that God takes no pleasure in
the death of the wicked yet he delighted in destroying the wicked
people. Is this a contradiction? No. Because God has a purpose and
a plan. He has the sovereign right to accomplish His will. On one
hand, He doesn't want people to suffer and die, yet on the other
hand, He is delighted to carry out His divine plan which necessarily
includes the death of the wicked because it is in accordance with the
Law which He Himself has given us. His divine plan will be
accomplished. This is further proof that God can desire one thing
and bring another to pass.

What does it all mean?

So what do we make of this difficult issue that God can desire
one thing and yet arrange circumstances, influence hearts, and govern
people to the contrary? I believe it is because there is something
greater than God's desire that all should be saved; namely that God's
divine plan will be carried out for His glory and the salvation of
the elect.
Love and kindness are not the only aspects of God's glorious
being. He is also holy and righteous and has brought history through
its course in order to reflect His great wisdom and justice as well
as His love and mercy. Though God hates sin, He permits it for the
greater glory of Himself and His plan. In this, He desires all to be
saved, but has not ordained that it be so because, according to the
Law, He must punish sinners.
The Law is a reflection of God's character. Jesus said that out
of the heart, the mouth speaks (Matt. 12:34). God spoke and the Law
came forth. It is pure and perfect because it reflects God's
character. God has said that the soul that sins will die (Ezekiel
18:4), that sin causes a separation between God and man (Isaiah
59:2), that He must punish the sinner (Exodus 32:34; Hosea 9:9), and
that His eyes are too pure to look upon evil (Hab. 1:13). If someone
sins, they must be punished because it is in accordance with God's
Law. That is why God can desire all to be saved, yet not ordain that
all be saved because His Law cannot be broken. What He is doing is
remaining true to His character in both His justice and grace. He is
true to His justice because He rightfully judges people according to
His Law. He is true to His grace because He gives people the
salvation they do not deserve. In both, He is being consistent with
His own character.
To that end, God has ordained all of history to flow to the
predetermined end to which He has sent it. He has His plan and it
will be carried out. He will bring glory to Himself. He will judge
the wicked. He will save the believers. This is why He is enduring
with such patience the wicked people.

"What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make
His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared
for destruction? 23And He did so in order that He might make known
the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared
beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among
Jews only, but also from among Gentiles" (Rom. 9:22-24).
God has worked all things after the counsel of His will (Eph.
1:5) and has engineered history to bring not only the cross as the
means of redemption, but also the culmination of all things for the
declaration of His own glory, righteousness, holiness, and
character. Sin will be shown to be utterly sinful and horrible. The
cross demonstrates His righteousness and grace and His sovereign will
is carried out.
Do 1 Tim. 2:3-4 and 2 Pet. 3:9 prove that all will be saved?
No, not at all. But they do show us that God is not simplistic and
that He has a divine plan that we must truly seek to fathom if we are
to rightly understand His word.

________________
1. The word "hardened" is the Hebrew "qashah." According to the
Strong's concordance, it means "to be hard, be severe, be fierce, be
harsh, be difficult, make hard, make stubborn. . .The NIV says "God
had made his spirit stubborn and his heart obstinate." The NKJV
says, "the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart
obstinate." The RSV says, "for the Lord your God hardened his spirit
and made his heart obstinate."

[Rick]

1 Tim. 4:10 and universalism

"For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our
hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of
believers" (NASB).
"(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the
living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who
believe" (NIV).
"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust
in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of those
that believe" (KJV).
Much is made out of 1 Tim. 4:10 by the Universalist to claim
that Jesus wil redeem all people whether or not they accept or reject
Christ as Savior here on earth. Eventually, they say, all people
will repent (either here or in the after-life) and come to a saving
relationship with God. 1 Tim. 4:10 is used as proof. Unfortunately,
the verse does not prove what the Universalists hope it does. Can
God be called the Savior of all men and yet not redeem all? Yes.
All people are, by nature, born under wrath (Eph. 2:3) and
should go to hell. Why? Because God is holy and we are sinners.
Yet, we have hope in Christ. The Christian is saved by faith (Eph.
2:8) and will join the Lord in heaven. But, the unbeliever is under
judgment. John 3:18 says, "He that believeth on him is not
condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he
hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God"
(KJV). Why does God not simply destroy them as is His right?
Because of the Christians! Because God is being patient with the
unbeliever, allowing them to enjoy the blessings of life in this
world without the rightful condemnation of God falling upon them.
This is what the Bible states:

"What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make
His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared
for destruction? 23 And He did so in order that He might make known
the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared
beforehand for glory" (Rom. 9:22-23, NASB).

As you can see, God is patient with the unregenerate. They
receive a delayed judgment because of God's love for the believer.
In this sense, Jesus is the Savior of the world because He holds back
His judging hand from all who rightly and immediately deserve it.
Judgment is delayed. This is a blessing received from God upon the
unbeliever. In fact, God often blesses the unbeliever because of the
presence of a believer.

"And it came about that from the time he made him overseer in his
house, and over all that he owned, the Lord blessed the Egyptian's
house on account of Joseph; thus the Lord's blessing was upon all
that he owned, in the house and in the field" (Gen. 39:5, NASB).

Consider also Matt. 13:24-30 and the parable of the wheat and
the tares. In it Jesus compares the world to a field. He later
interprets it by stating that "the good seed, these are the sons of
the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one," (Matt.
13:38). But in Matt. 13:20-30 Jesus states that the tares are not
dealt with right away because the wheat is there among them. "But he
*said, `No; lest while you are gathering up the tares, you may root
up the wheat with them. 30 `Allow both to grow together until the
harvest," (NASB).
So, can it be said that the tares were saved from judgment?
Yes...temporarily. The unbeliever enjoys a delayed judgment. But
with the Christian, Jesus is especially their Savior and judgment is
permanently removed from them.

All are made saveable by Jesus' sacrifice

Another way in which Jesus is the savior of all men is that He
has made all people saveable. Without Jesus' sacrifice, none could
ever be saved. Since Jesus, who is the word made flesh (John
1:1,14), atoned for sin, all people are now redeemable. He is the
Savior of all, but especially of believers. That is, all are now
redeemable due to the sacrifice of Christ, but redemption is
specifically applied to those who trust in Christ.

Is God the Savior?

For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our
hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of
believers (1 Tim. 4:10, NASB).

1 Tim. 4:10 is referring to God in particular and not
necessarily Jesus in particular. Does the title "God" include
Jesus? Of course, since Jesus is God in flesh (Col. 2:9), the
Savior. God, who is a Trinity, is called Savior in Psalm 106:21;
Isaiah 43:3; Luke 1:47; 1 Tim. 1:1; 2:3; Titus 1:3-4; and Titus
2:10. It is obvious that the term refers to God in the generic sense
of being the Savior of all men since He brings salvation to all
though it is not accepted by all. This is why it says that God (not
Jesus) is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. How is it
especially to believers? Simple. It is especially and specifically
realized only by those who are believers.
Furthermore, only Jesus is the mediator between God and men (1
Tim. 2:5) and He mediates only between the saved and God. He does
not mediate His atoning work for the unredeemed. His being Savior is
generic for all, but specific for the saved.
Therefore, this verse does not necessitate that all will be
redeemed.

[Rick]

What you have posted is enough matereal to fill a bookshelf. That is not having a debate.

I have offered to discuss issues with you one at a time but obviously that scares you.

You are only interested in what you want to hear and you are not interested in an honest discussion or an honest debate.

You want me to spend my time typing responses to a slew of your cut and paste articles. That isn`t reasonable and it isn`t possible for me to do it.

You continue to spam the site after I have asked you several times to stop doing that. I don`t expect you and I to agree on things but I do expect members to follow the rules. You are suspended.

[Remedialist]

My form of Universalism is called Universal Remedialism. I do not think that all are "saved" in the salvation which the Son of God offers in this age. Those who go to hell and to the lake of fire come out and obey God because all the sin has been burnt out of them. That would include the devils as well.

Here is a verse for Rick and others to deal with. It is a verse about universalism.

Matthew 5:26
Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
Matthew 5:25-27

This applies to those who are cast into the prison of hell. The "adversary" with whom we must agree is the Holy Spirit Who convicts us. If we do not agree (confess) with the Holy Spirit and repent, we will be placed in prison and will not come out until we have paid the last farthing.

Remedialist

[Remedialist]

In one post, Rick mentioned the principle of taking individual Scriptures in context. I agree wholeheartedly in principle with taking things in context.

I think we are having what we may call "an in house debate." That is to say, the "house" is fellow-believers in Holy Scripture given through the Hebrew people in whom God sent forth prophets and apostles and the Son Who became the Messiah.

If we agree to the basic Christian message of there being one true religion, namely the way of Jesus the Messiah... the Son... the fulfillment of the Torah of the Sinaitic Covenant, then we can rejoice in Him while we patiently discuss differences. We should try to avoid the trap of emphasizing our differences.

Next post will bring up one issue.

Remedialist (aka Timotheus Wood ... whose blog is http://remedialist.blogspot.com/ )

[Remedialist]

"Aion of the aions" as used in the Revelation 22:5 says that [His servants] shall be reigning "eis tous aionas ton aionon" which Concordant Literal translates as "into the eon of the eons" while NAS translates it as : they will reign "forever and ever." Revelation 22:5

Yet, in 1 Corinthians we have apostle Paul telling us there will be a finish to the reign of the Messiah (and presumably to His servants who reign with Him).

1 Corinthians 15:25
For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
1 Corinthians 15:24-26

If the reign of the Messiah and His servants comes to an end, it is therefore at best a subjective "for ever" which describes the duration of the reign.

Hell may seem like forever. The Lake of Fire may subjectively seem like forever. And the rule and reign with Messiah may seem like forever. Yet, there will be a consumation.

So, I respectfully disagree with Rick's point of view on this one topic. Yet we agree that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

Remedialist