Hope Beyond Hell?

[Rick]

This thread will be used to discuss the vast amount of material rogertutte has been posting on the site. It is just about too much to sort through but he has managed to spark my interest and I will be exploring the Universal Salvation view here and in my Yahoo groups.

It`s not my normal practice to commit to such a time consuming endeavor online as this thing is going to be. But I have come to conclude that the view does pose some challenges to the traditional Christian view of judgement and hell.

We have to start somewhere so I will begin with the link to the piece that intriques me the most.

http://hopebeyondhell.net/Revised_Edition.pdf

[Rick]

Does God hate anyone?

The answer is yes.

Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost
hate all who do iniquity,"

Psalm 11:5, "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one
who loves violence His soul hates."

Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation
which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things,
and therefore I have abhorred them."

Prov. 6:16-19, "There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven
which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and
hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans,
feet that run rapidly to evil,
19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among
brothers."

Hosea 9:15, "All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them
there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them
out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are
rebels."

[Rick]

Forever and Ever

Is the English phrase "forever and ever" a proper translation
of the Greek? Does it mean without end? Is it ever used of
something not eternal? Does it refer to eternal torment? These
questions are important because the universalist position denies the
eternality of hell fire. Universalists take the literal Greek phrase
of "eis tous aionas ton aionon, -- into the age of the ages" which is
commonly translated as "forever and ever," "forevermore," and state
that it refers to an age of time, a finite period of time.
It is true that the basic root of "aion" means age. But it is
not true that all words derived from that root mean a finite duration
of time. The phrase means "unlimited duration of time, with
particular focus upon the future - `always, forever, forever and
ever , eternally."'1
Additionally, the phrase is used to describe both God's eternal
attributes and His eternal nature as well as eternal torment.
Following is a table containing every single usage of the Greek
phrase "eis tous aionas ton aionon -- into the age of the ages." It
clearly shows that it means "forever," "without end." The first two
verses deal with eternal condemnation and judgment. The next 16 deal
with God's Glory and honor.


"into the age of the ages"
Translated as "forever and ever"; "forevermore"


"And a second time they said, "Hallelujah! Her smoke rises up forever
and ever," (Rev. 19:3).
"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and
brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they
will be tormented day and night forever and ever," (Rev. 20:10).

"to whom be the glory forevermore, Amen" (Gal. 1:2)
"Now to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever. Amen,"
(Phil. 4:20)
"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor
and glory forever and ever. Amen," (1 Tim. 1:17).
"The Lord will deliver me from every evil deed, and will bring me
safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever.
Amen," (2 Tim. 4:18).
"equip you in every good thing to do His will, working in us that
which is pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the
glory forever and ever. Amen," (Heb. 13:21).
"Whoever speaks, let him speak, as it were, the utterances of God;
whoever serves, let him do so as by the strength which God supplies;
so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to
whom belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen," (1 Pet.
4:11).
"and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father;
to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen," (Rev.
1:6).
"and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive
forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades," (Rev. 1:18).
"And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him
who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever," (Rev.
4:9).
"the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the
throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will
cast their crowns before the throne," (Rev. 4:10).
"And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and
under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard
saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing
and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever," (Rev. 5:13).
"Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and
power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen," (Rev. 7:12).
"and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and
the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and
the things in it, that there shall be delay no longer," (Rev. 10:6).
"And the seventh angel sounded; and there arose loud voices in
heaven, saying, 'The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of
our Lord, and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever,'"
(Rev. 11:15).
"And one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven
golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever,"
(Rev. 15:7).
"And there shall no longer be any night; and they shall not have need
of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God
shall illumine them; and they shall reign forever and ever," (Rev.
22:5).


Clearly, the phrase "forever and ever" is a correct translation
of the Greek ""eis tous aionas ton aionon -- forever and ever" Every
instance of the phrase shows eternality.
But, a word of caution. The Universalist may say that Rev. 19.3
is not eternal because it is the description of smoke from the City
of Babylon. But, the judgment that is cast upon her is only the
beginning of the eternal punishment of the wicked, indicated in the
statement that the smoke from her goes up forever and ever.
The phrase is always speaking of eternal duration.
Universalism is incorrect because not all will be saved because:

"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and
brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they
will be tormented day and night forever and ever," (Rev. 20:10).

[Rick]

A look at the word "aionion"

Universalism is the teaching that God will ultimately bring all
people, in all times, and all places to a state of reconciliation
with Him. In other words, everyone who ever lived will be saved.
Consequently, universalism cannot allow the possibility of an eternal
hell as a realistic biblical teaching.
To get around the problem of the English Bibles translating
Greek words into "eternal," "forever," and forevermore" when
describing fire (Matt. 18:8) or torment (Rev. 20:10), the
universalists go to the Greek. The Greek word that is translated
into eternal is "aionion." It comes from the Greek root "aion"
meaning "age." This fact combined with the various uses of Greek
words derived from the root "aion," are what the universalists use to
attempt to show that "aionion" does not always mean "eternal" but can
refer to a finite period of time.
The truth is, they are right. It can be translated into a
temporal sense as it is in Rom. 16:25: "Now to Him who is able to
establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus
Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been
kept secret for long ages (aionios1) past." But the reason it is
translated that way is because of context, and that is extremely
important. Context determines meaning, as you will see later.
With the claim that "aionion" can be translated into something
temporal and that its root means "age," the universalist then says
that any reference to "eternal fire," "eternal torment," or "eternal
punishment" is not really eternal. Instead of "eternal torment," it
is "aionion torment." Instead of "eternal punishment," it
is "aionion punishment." That way, to the universalist, there is no
eternal hell, no eternal punishment, and no eternal damnation.
Everyone will be saved.
This approach by the Universalists can be confusing to someone
who doesn't understand Greek and that is part of the reason that
Universalism has followers. It is true that the root "aion" means
age. But just because a root means age, does not mean that every
word derived from that root means a limited duration of time. For
example consider this verse that is speaking about God:

who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light;
whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal
dominion! Amen, (1 Tim. 6:16)

The context is obviously dealing with God's eternal nature.
The word in Greek for "immortality" is "athanatos." The Greek word
for death is "thanatos." The "a" in front of the word is the
negator, without, non, etc. It means that God is deathless; hence,
immortal. This is an eternal quality of God. Likewise, the verse
states that God has eternal dominion. The word for "eternal"
is "aionios" which is derived from the Greek root "aion" which means
age. But, God is not immortal for only an "age," nor is His dominion
temporal. The word "eternal" is absolutely the best way to translate
the Greek "aionion" because God is immortal and eternal. Therefore,
it would be wrong to translate the verse by stating that God
has "aionion" dominion. Rather, He has eternal dominion.

How is "aionion" used in the New Testament?

The following two sections are verses that contain the
word "aionion" which is translated as "eternal." Notice how using
the word "eternal" in the first group is no problem. But, it is the
second group with which the Universalists object. Nevertheless, the
same word is used in both. See for yourself.

John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal
(aionion) life.

John 20:28, "and I give eternal (aionion) life to them, and they
shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand."

Acts 13:48, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing
and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been
appointed to eternal (aionion) life believed."

Romans 2:7, " to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for
glory and honor and immortality, eternal (aionion) life."

Romans 5:21, "that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace might
reign through righteousness to eternal (aionion) life through Jesus
Christ our Lord."

Rom. 16:26, " but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the
prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal (aionion) God,
has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of
faith."

Gal. 6:8, "For the one who sows to his own flesh shall from the flesh
reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit shall from the
Spirit reap eternal (aionion) life."

1 Tim. 6:16, "who alone possesses immortality and dwells in
unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be
honor and eternal (aionion) dominion! Amen."

1 John 1:2, "and the life was manifested, and we have seen and bear
witness and proclaim to you the eternal (aionion) life, which was
with the Father and was manifested to us"

1 John 5:11, "And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal
(aionion) life, and this life is in His Son."

The following set of scriptures divulge the nature of eternal
damnation.

Matt. 18:8, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut
it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life
crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into
the eternal (aionion) fire.

Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, `Depart
from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal (aionion) fire which has
been prepared for the devil and his angels;"

Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal (aionion)
punishment, but the righteous into eternal (aionion) life."

Mark 3:29, "but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has
forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal (aionion) sin."

Mark 10:30, "but that he shall receive a hundred times as much now in
the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and
children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come,
eternal (aionion) life.

Luke 18:30, "who shall not receive many times as much at this time
and in the age to come, eternal (aionion) life."

2 Thess. 1:9, "And these will pay the penalty of eternal (aionion)
destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of
His power,"

Jude 7, "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since
they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went
after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the
punishment of eternal (aionion) fire."

It should be quite obvious that there is an eternal punishment
and that universalism is nothing more than a hopeful wish. The
Universalists are not justified in picking and choosing the meaning
of a word based upon their interpretations of "aion" that suits them
and depending on which verse is used.

[Rick]

What do Greek dictionaries say about "aionion"

Universalists place a great deal of weight on the word "aion"
which means "age." From the Greek root "aion" we also have the
word "aionion" which is translated in most instances in most Bibles
as "eternal."
The significance of this is that Universalists maintain that
there is no eternal punishment in hell fire. Therefore, they assert
that the word "aionion" is in reference to "age duration" and can
have temporal duration. With this assertion they try to substantiate
their theological position that all people everywhere will ultimately
be saved.
But, what do Greek Dictionaries and Lexicons have to say about
the words and phrases used in Greek that are translated into the
English "age", "world", "eternal," "forever", "forever and ever,"
etc.? Let's find out.

aion - , - age, world

"for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds,
universe; period of time, age."

Enhanced Strong's Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems,
Inc.) 1995, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.

aionion, aionios - - eternal

"aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used
of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26),
His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit,
(Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in
Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future
rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end,
(Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the
judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments,
(Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7)."

Rom. 16:26 - " . . .according to the commandment of the eternal
God. . ."

1 Tim. 6:16 - ". . . To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."

1 Pet. 5:10 - " . . . who called you to His eternal glory in Christ,"

Mark 3:29 - " . . . never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an
eternal sin."

etc.

SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New
Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981,
Available: Logos Library System.

"describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom.
16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom.
16:26, and the other sixty–six places in the N.T.

Rom. 16:25 - " . . which has been kept secret for long ages past,"

Rom 16:26 - ". . . according to the commandment of the eternal God,"

2 Tim. 1:9 - ". . . which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all
eternity,"

Titus 1:2 - "the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie,
promised" long ages ago"

SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New
Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, [Online]
Available: Logos Library System)

Eis tous aionios ton aionion - - Forever and Ever, Lit. "into the
age of the ages"

"unlimited duration of time, with particular focus upon the future -
`always, forever, forever and ever, eternally."

Phil. 4:20 - ". . .to our God and Father be the glory forever and
ever."

Rev. 19:3 - " . . .Her smoke rises up forever and ever."

Rev. 20:20 - "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the
lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are
also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

SOURCE: Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon
of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United
Bible Societies) 1988, 1989, Available: Logos Library System.







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[Rick]

Is Hell Eternal?

The teaching that there is an eternal hell in which hordes of
mankind will suffer eternal punishment can be a difficult doctrine to
accept. We hear so much about God's infinite love and how He desires
that all men be saved (1 Tim. 2:4). However, those who develop their
theologies based upon the "gentle" side of God do so with an
incomplete picture. Not only is God loving (1 John 4:8-10), gracious
(Exo. 33:19; 1 Pet. 2:3), and merciful (Exodus 34:6; Psalm 67:1;
James 5:11), but He is also holy (Isaiah 6:3; Rev. 4:8), just ( Neh.
9:32-33; 2 Thess. 1:6), and hates sin (Psalm 5:5-6; Hab. 1:13). God
punishes the sinner (Jer. 50:31; Ez. 44:12; Matt. 25:46; 2 Thess.
1:9; 2 Pet. 2:9; Heb. 10:29).
The Bible teaches that there is a fiery hell, a place that Jesus
warned people about.

"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and
throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or
lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal
fire," (Matt. 18:8).

Eternal fire is real. Jesus said it was. In fact, Jesus spoke
a great deal about hell. It is what Jesus came here to save us
from.
There will be a Day of Judgment when all people will face God.
Those who are not covered by the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross will
be cast out into hell where they will undergo eternal
punishment. "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the
righteous into eternal life" (Matt. 25:46). In this verse, the same
word "eternal" is used to describe the punishment of the wicked as
well as the eternal life of the believer. The punishment is endless
as is the eternal life of the believer. That is why the gospel (1
Cor. 15:1-4) is so important, because it saves people from eternal
damnation:

Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to
you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which
also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to
you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of
first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins
according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He
was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him
who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but
has passed out of death into life, (John 5:24).

Following are a few verses that show the eternality of the hell
and punishment. God uses different phrases to describe the same
thing.

"And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the
presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (2 Thess.
1:9).
"Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in
the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after
strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the
punishment of eternal fire" (Jude 7).
These men are those who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when
they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds
without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit,
doubly dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own
shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has
been reserved forever," (Jude12-13).
Is "forever and ever" without end?

The phrase "forever and ever" is used both of describing God's
eternal worth and the duration of eternal damnation. The exact same
Greek phrase is used in each of the verses in the table below.

forever and ever

aionas ton aionon
"ages of the ages"
Eternal - without end Eternal Damnation
"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor
and glory forever and ever. Amen," (1 Tim. 1:17).
". . . To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing
and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever" (Rev. 5:13).

"And a second time they said, "Hallelujah! Her smoke rises up
forever and ever" (Rev. 19:3).

"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and
brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they
will be tormented day and night forever and ever," (Rev. 20:10).


The Greek phrase "aionas ton aionon," which is
translated "forever and ever," occurs 18 times in the Greek New
Testament. In 17 of them, the phrase means without end, extending
into infinity. In Rev. 19:3, the phrase is used to describe the
destruction of the great ***** of Babylon (Rev. 17:1,4) whose smoke
ascends forever and ever. It too is eternal and it signifies the
beginning of the eternal judgment that comes upon her.
Also worth examining is Rev. 14:11: "And the smoke of their
torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and
night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever
receives the mark of his name."
The Greek in Rev. 14:11 is only slightly different. In the
table above, "forever and ever" is translated from the Greek, "aionas
ton aionon," which is literally "ages of the of ages." In Rev.
14:11, the Greek is "aionas aionon" which is literally, "ages of
ages." In the latter, the single Greek word "of the" is missing.
But it is not necessary and does not change the meaning of the text.
Therefore, the scripture teaches the smoke of their torment goes up
forever, without end.

Unquenchable Fire

Some believe that the fires of hell are symbolic and/or
temporal. But the following verses show that they are not.
Matt. 3:12 says, "And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He
will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His
wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable
fire." (See also Luke 3:17.)
Mark 9:43 says, "And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it
off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your
two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire." The
word "unquenchable" is "asbestos" in the Greek. According to the
enhanced Strong's lexicon, it means "unquenchable, the eternal hell
fire to punish the damned."
The following citations are from Greek dictionaries and
Lexicons. They show that the word "unquenchable," which
is "asbestos" in the Greek, (which occurs only in Matt. 3:12, Luke
3:17, and Mark 9:43) means unquenchable, without end.

"unquenchable, inextinguishable" - Liddell, H. G., and Scott,
Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press)
1992, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.
"not quenched" - Vine, W. E., Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and
New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981,
[Online] Available: Logos Library System.
"pertaining to a fire that cannot be put out" - "unquenchable." -
Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the
New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible
Societies) 1988, 1989, [Online] Available: Logos Library System
"unquenched, unquenchable" - Enhanced Strong's Lexicon, (Oak Harbor,
WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995, [Online] Available: Logos
Library System.
"that cannot be put out" - Wigram-Green, The New Englishman's Greek
Concordance and Lexicon, (Peabody Mass: Hendrikson Publishers, 1982,
p. 771.
"inextinguishable" - William F. Arndt and F. Wilbur Gingrich, A Greek-
English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian
Literature, 2nd ed. (Chicago, Ill: The University of Chicago Press),
1979, p. 114.
Is hell eternal? Yes it is. Are its fires without end? Yes
they are. Is it a pleasant doctrine to discuss? Not really. But,
hell is real. This is all the more reason to preach the gospel.
Jesus said,

"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and
throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or
lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal
fire," (Matt. 18:8).

[Rick]

The demonic forces will not be saved


There are some universalists who believe that Satan and all of
the demonic realm will be redeemed through the atonement of Jesus.
Though I have found this is a minority view among the universalists,
it is still worth addressing and correcting.
The demonic realm will not and cannot be redeemed. This simple
reason is that they have no Redeemer. Jesus is the Redeemer of
humanity, not of the demonic realm.
There is a doctrine in theology called the hypostatic union. It
is the doctrine of the two natures of Jesus. Jesus is both God and
man. He was God so that He could appease God the Father with the
sacrifice of infinite value. We need a sacrifice of infinite value
because when we sin, we sin against an infinite God. Therefore our
offense against Him has infinite consequences.
No mere human can please and satisfy an infinitely holy and
righteous God. Only God Himself can satisfy the infinite
requirements of His own holiness. Therefore, "the Word became flesh
and dwelt among us," (John 1:14). Jesus became our atoning sacrifice
to turn away the wrath of God (Rom. 5:9) by bearing our sins in His
body on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24). Therefore, those who trust in
Christ are saved by grace (Eph. 2:8-9; Rom. 6:23).
Likewise, the reason he needed to be a man was so that he could
atone for the sins of mankind. He had to be made like one of us.

"For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to
the descendant of Abraham. 17Therefore, He had to be made like His
brethren in all things, that He might become a merciful and faithful
high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the
sins of the people." (Heb. 2:16-17).

The fallen angels do not have a sacrifice on their behalf. They
do not have the infinite God becoming one of them and atoning for
them. Therefore, the demonic realm will not be saved.

______________________

John 1:14 - "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we
beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full
of grace and truth."
Rom. 5:9 - "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood,
we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."
1 Pet. 2:24 - "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross,
that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds
you were healed."
Eph. 2:8-9 - "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and
that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of
works, that no one should boast."
Rom. 6:23 - "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God
is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

[Rick]

If election is true what is the danger in universalism?

Universalism teaches that Jesus died for all people and that all
will eventually be saved. It also teaches that if someone rejects
Christ in this life, he can accept Jesus in the next one, even if he
is a horrible person who severely blasphemed God. The danger with
this is that based on this principle in universalism, someone could
adopt an attitude of complacency who would then choose to live a life
of sin and rebellion and wait until the afterlife to become a true
believer -- even if there is some "purification" involved in the
afterlife. The obvious problem is that if universalism is wrong and
the person hopes to be saved in the next life, he'll face an eternity
of hell instead of heaven. This is an inherent weakness in
Universalism.
CARM has many discussion boards. One of them is on
universalism. I have raised this issue to them many times and two
responses have come forth from: one is to ignore the point all
together and not admit it exists. The other is to ignore the issue
and counter attack. The most prevalent counterattack against me is a
challenge regarding election (I'm Reformed in theology) and ask that
since God's elect cannot be deceived, how can universalism pose a
threat to the elect?
In part, the universalists deflection of the real question is
understandable since they desire to defend their position at all
costs, a consistent pattern with them. But, what is amazing is
their inability to admit the possible danger in their position. To
them, it is quite impossible to consider anything in universalism to
be less than perfect. This is disconcerting.
Nevertheless, I'll answer their objection, even though they
refuse to address mine, in hopes of encouraging them to actually face
the issue and admit the danger.

Reformed theology teaches that God elects, from all eternity,
those who will be saved and that this election cannot fail; those who
are elected to salvation will be saved and only those who wanted to
be saved are elected to be saved. Likewise, it is not possible for
the elect to lose their salvation since the cross has made it secure.
Universalism can contribute to people procrastinating regarding
salvation in the here and now in order to wait until the after-life
where they have a second chance, an opportunity to be purified in a
hell-like state after which they will then be able to go to heaven
and be with God forever. Of course, if universalism is wrong, then
those who had erringly put their hope in Universalism's second-chance-
in-the-afterlife-belief would be lost forever. The question then, if
election is true, does it really matter regarding universalism's
truth or error?
Yes it does. First, God does not want error to be taught,
regardless of election or not. Universalism is an error.
Second, both election and warning against false teachings are
taught in the Bible. Therefore, there is no contradiction since
God's word teaches both.

Election:

"And unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been
saved; but for the sake of the elect those days shall be cut short,"
(Matt. 24:22, cf., Mark 13:20).

" . . . so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect," (Matt. 24:24,
cf., Mark 13:22).

"And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will
gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the
sky to the other," (Matt. 24:31, cf., Mark 13:27).

"now shall not God bring about justice for His elect, who cry to Him
day and night, and will He delay long over them?" (Luke 18:7).

"Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who
justifies," (Rom. 8:33).

Warning against false teaching

"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing,
but inwardly are ravenous wolves," (Matt. 7:15).

". . .See to it that no one misleads you. "For many will come in My
name, saying, `I am the Christ,' and will mislead many," (Matt. 24:4-
5; cf, Luke 21:8).

See also Acts 20:29; 2 Cor. 11:13; Eph. 4:14

Therefore, for the universalist to think that the two issues are
contradictory in any way is unwarranted because the Bible teaches
both concepts.
"The subject of election is God, who chooses on the basis of his
sovereign will for his creation. Associated with election are
theological terms such as `predestination,' `providence,'
and `covenant.'"1 The elect are God's chosen people who were set
apart from the foundation of the universe to be saved, to belong to
God. So, if this is true how can I consistently warn people against
the errors of universalism? Actually, if the universalists wanted to
be consistent, why would I warn anyone about anything? Shouldn't I
just sit around and do nothing because God will take care of it all
regarding the elect? The answer is simple. God ordains the means as
well as the ends in election. He uses Christians, freed from sin, to
do His sovereign will according to His command to refute error and
make disciples.

"Holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the
teaching, that he may be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to
refute those who contradict," (Titus 1:9).

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations. . . " (Matt.
28:19).

"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy
servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate,
along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever
Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur" (Acts 4:28).

Obviously God wants people to refute error, to make disciples,
yet it is He who predestines people. How does this work? I am not
sure. But God has it under control. Furthermore, we do not know the
criteria by which God elects, but elect He does. The Bible teaches
that plainly. It is not, however, based in anything good in us for
there is nothing good in us; we are sinners. That is why God shows
no partiality; that is, He does not elect based on anything in us.
Also, God says the prayers of a righteous man (Christian) can
accomplish much with Him (James 5:16). How can that be if He
predestines all things (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:28-29)? I don't know.
But, He predestines and He instructs us to pray because it makes a
difference with Him. How does that work? Again, I do not know and I
cannot explain the mind of God. But, God predestines, commands us to
be careful about false teaching, and instructs us to go make
disciples?
Is it contradictory to say that God elects and that our prayers
can influence Him? Not at all, since both are true in scripture.
Furthermore, I absolutely believe that God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11;
Acts 4:28) and I believe my prayers and efforts (i.e., CARM) make a
difference. In fact, I am far more evangelical than most people: I've
literally got thousands of hours in evangelism experience, preaching,
teaching, witnessing, apologetics, web, radio, etc, and I have many
testimonials how the efforts have made a difference in peoples'
lives. This all goes to prove one very important point: God ordains
the means as well as the end.
It isn't up to me to figure out all the nuances of God's mind
and how all of it fits together. I leave that to Him and I go forth
in obedience to His declaration (predestination/election) and His
command (make disciples).

A possible explanation

Alright, so I've pleaded ignorance, in part, on this subject.
Nevertheless, I offer a possible explanation of how this can work.

God's total knowledge eternally encompasses all actions of all beings
and all possible and actual permutations of all events of all things.
This means that from before the universe existed, in the mind of God,
all potential existences and all potential combinations of all events
were already known and understood by God; hence, true omniscience.
This would include all things done by "free will" creatures anytime
and anyplace in the then distant future under all actual and
potential circumstances.
Since all things have eternally been simultaneously known by God
(even the "free will" choices made by all people), then, when He
planned the universe, it is necessarily true that all things which
were known and consulted by God were included in His plan of election
as He placed people in and where He did according to His sovereign
will to "do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur"
(Acts 4:28).
It cannot be that God remains ignorant on any subject. When He
created the universe He did so knowing everything that could and
would be. Since He is all powerful, it is natural to state that He
included all possible outcomes in His sovereign plan, including
election. This election may or may not be influenced by foreknowledge
concerning our actions and desires.
This plan can easily include our prayers and the resulting
ramifications of the teaching of false doctrines that damn people.
Our prayers can, then, have an influence with Him from all eternity,
yet, He has not changed from all eternity. The only way that this can
be is if He knew everything about everything and included what He
desired in the universe that He constructed and set in motion.
It is perfectly logical, therefore, that in our time reference, we
can make choices, influence God, be warned about apostasy and false
doctrines, and actually truly make a difference in people's lives
(for good or bad), and have all these things sovereignly included in
the plan of God by which He elects and predestines. This way, the
idea of a false doctrine damning and God's election are not mutually
exclusive.
In other words, God knew all that what we would do (good and bad) and
took it all into account when He constructed the universe and put us
in it and developed His sovereign plan by which He has predestined
what will occur. After all it says that ". . .He chose us in Him
before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and
blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons
through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of
His will," (Eph. 4:5). Is this predestination apart from His
infinite knowledge of our influence upon Him (James 5:16) from all
eternity? Of course not.
Therefore, what we do makes a difference in the lives of people.
False doctrines are still dangerous and are to be warned against --
the outcome, of which, are included in God's sovereign plan of
election. He still predestines, we still can influence God in our
prayers (James 5:16) and God's warning about apostasy and false
doctrines are still valid.
Objections answered

But, some universalists will object that the doctrine of
election can cause the very same thing of which universalism is
accused; namely, a false sense of security in salvation. Certainly,
this is a possibility. But, the Bible says that God elects (Matt.
24:22,31), that His sheep will never perish (John 10:28), that those
who say they know Jesus and do not keep His word are liars without
the truth (1 John 2:4), and that the Christian is a new creature in
Christ (2 Cor. 5:17): "Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new
creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come."
It is this last verse that is extremely relevant here.
Being a new creature in Christ means that the Christian is no
longer a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16). He is now free. A true Christian
will not use the grace of God to sin (Rom. 6:1-3) and expect to be
saved no matter what. Why? Because a true Christian is at war with
the flesh (Rom. 7) and does not remain in sin (John 8:31; James 2:14).
But, the very fact that the universalists bring up this counter-
argument is an admission of the weakness of their own for they
recognize it and try to apply it to a different situation as a means
of defense. In so doing, they do not answer the original problem;
they only change the subject and hope the problem will go away.
Also, election deals with Christians, universalism deals with
Christians and unbelievers. The Christian is regenerated and changed
and will not abide in sin; he cannot because he is not a slave to it
anymore and will not use his security in Christ as a license to sin.
The unbeliever is not saved and can still hope in eternal life after
death so they can sin now. And it is to this charge that the
universalist has failed to adequately respond.

Another objection raised by universalists is how do you know if
you are elect or not? This question demonstrates a lack of
understanding of biblical theology. The Bible says that "These things
I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in
order that you may know that you have eternal life" (1 John 5:13). It
is certainly possible, according to God's word, to know that you are
elect. On a practical level, I would say that anyone who has trusted
Jesus as Savior (not a false Christ as in the cults), will have the
knowledge and testimony of the Holy Spirit living within him and he
will observe a change in his own heart. This is a demonstration of
regeneration. Furthermore, only Christians have the mind of Christ
and know that Jesus is God in flesh, risen from the dead, and
ascended into heaven to which the Bible says, an unbeliever cannot
accept (1 Cor. 2:14).



________________________
1 Achtemeier, Paul J., Th.D., Harper's Bible Dictionary, (San
Francisco: Harper and Row, Publishers, Inc.) 1985.
2. Infralapsarianism is an issue within Reformed theology dealing
with what may have happened in God's mind regarding the logical order
of His considering whom to elect into salvation before the foundation
of the world. The word means "after the fall." The position is that
God first decided he would allow sin into the world and second that
he would then save people from it. By contrast, the supralapsarian
("before the fall") position holds that God first decided that he
would save some people and then second that he would allow sin into
the world.
I am somewhat bewildered by this difference within Reformed
circles since all knowledge with God is eternally known and
simultaneous. It would seem that the distinctives between infra and
supralapsarianism would be moot

[Rick]

A Challenge to Universalists


The Bible says to "test yourselves to see if you are in the
faith" (2 Cor. 13:5). This is something that we must do. We must not
carelessly assume that we know all that is true in the Bible. If
universalism is true, fine. But if it is not, then the eternal
consequence of damnation is of utter importance. Therefore, I issue
this challenge to any who claim to be Universalists. Are you a
Christian?
Of course, some of you will claim that you are and it is not my
place to judge you. God is the Judge and He has revealed what His
will is in the Bible about what false doctrines disqualify someone
from being a Chrsitian. Therefore, it is from God's word that I
challenge you. This challenge is not about the truth or error of
universalism. It is about who Jesus is. Do you believe He is God,
the creator of the universe, worthy of all worship and honor, equal
to the person of the Father? If yes, good. If not, then you
desperately need to examine yourself to see if you are in the faith
because to deny this means you are not a Christian.
Jesus said, "I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your
sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your
sins," (John 8:24, NASB). The word "He" is not in the Greek. It
literally says, "for unless you believe that I am, you shall die in
your sins." Later in this same chapter in verse 58, Jesus
said, "before Abraham was, I AM." He was alluding to Exodus 3:14,
where God told Moses that His name was "I am that I am."
Likewise, in 1 John 4:2-3 it says, "This is how you can
recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that
Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that
does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the
Antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in
the world." Very few people deny that Jesus lived; that is, that
Jesus came in flesh. When John wrote this, he was not saying that you
must believe that Jesus lived, but that Jesus was God in flesh.
The time of the writing of First John is important. The Gnostic
heresy was prominent. It taught that God was too pure to have
anything to do with sinful flesh. Therefore, Gnosticism taught that
Jesus could not be God in flesh. It was in this context and against
this error that John was writing. Jesus is God in flesh and to deny
it is the Spirit of Antichrist.
Furthermore, the above verse needs to be cross referenced with
John 1:1,14 (also written by John) where he states that the Word was
God and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. In 1 John 4, the
apostle knew what he was writing when he spoke of Jesus being in the
flesh.
The Bible states that there is only one God (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6;
44:8). It states that Jesus created all that exists: "For by Him all
things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and
invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all
things have been created by Him and for Him. 17And He is before all
thins, and in Him all things hold together," (Col. 1:16-17). Jesus is
the creator.
In Isaiah 44:24, it says, "Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the Lord, am the maker
of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, and spreading
out the earth all alone." This verse shows us that the Lord God
created the universe - alone. If God created the universe alone and
if Jesus created all things, then Jesus is God. Jesus is fully and
completely God in flesh, second person of the Trinity. Col. 2:9, "For
in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form."
And again, in John 5:22-23, Jesus said, "For not even the Father
judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23 in order
that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who
does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him."
Why is all this so important? Because it is Jesus who reveals
the Father (Matt. 11:27; Luke 10:22), who sends the Holy Spirit of
truth (John 15:26), and who opens the mind to understand scripture
(Luke 24:45). If you do not have the true Jesus, you will not know
the true God. You will not know the true Holy Spirit. You will not
have your mind opened to understand God's word. If you do not have
the true Christ, then you simply are not a Christian.

So I challenge you, do you believe Jesus is God in flesh, worthy
of the same honor has Father, the creator of all, the risen Lord? If
you cannot say yes, then I suggest to you that you are not a
Christian and need to re-examine your beliefs, regardless of whether
or not universalism is true.
Furthermore, if you deny that Jesus is God in flesh and just if
universalism is false, then you would be in deep trouble come
judgment day. Don't put your hope in universalism. Put it in Jesus
who is God in flesh.

[Rick]

Fallen angels go to the lake of fire forever

Some Universalists maintain that even the demonic horde will
ultimately be redeemed and enjoy heaven. Other Universalists deny
that the demonic forces will be redeemed. You often get different
answers from different Universalists. Is it important? Yes, it is.
People are redeemed because they have a Redeemer, Jesus. Jesus
is God in flesh (Col. 2:9) who bore our sins in His body on the cross
(1 Pet. 2:24). Nowhere in the Bible does it state that Jesus bore
the sins of demons. Why? Because it did not happen.
The reason this is important is because we can then see that the
demonic realm does not have a savior and cannot be redeemed from
their sins. They will remain in their sins for eternity.
We see the pattern of God's incarnation, bearing of sins, dying,
resurrection, and justification by faith (Rom. 5:1). We see that God
became man. We see that Jesus was both God and man (Col. 2:9). It
was necessary that He be both God and man for a very simple and
important reason. He had to be God in order to offer a sufficiently
holy and infinite sacrifice to counter the infinite offense against
God that creatures commit against Him. He had to be man in order to
bear the sins of men. He had to represent the ones for whom He
atoned in order for them to be atoned for.
According to this pattern that we see in Scripture, for the
demonic realm to be saved, God would have become one of them, bear
their sins, and, somehow, redeem them through death or some other
means that God would determine. Yet, there is nothing in scripture
to substantiate that this has or will occur. Therefore, the demonic
realm has no redeemer and their sins will be retained, forever.
But some might ask, "Could God have another means by which He
saves the fallen angels?" Yes. He could, most anything is
possible. But mere possibilities do not make actualities. The Bible
does not provide any redemptive plan for the demonic forces.
Therefore, we can safely conclude that there is none. Demons are
not and will not be redeemed.

Reconciling the whole world

Some Universalists maintain that all the demonic forces will be
redeemed because it states so in the Bible. It doesn't.
Nevertheless, following are some of the verses used by the
Universalists to claim that the demonic realm will be redeemed. I've
commented following each verse.

1 Cor. 15:27-28 "For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He
may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside
of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to
Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects
all to Him, that God may be All in all."

This is simply stating that all things will be subject to God. Even
the damned will be subject to God because in hell they are in a state
of subjection to God's judgment upon them. It is God's will to judge
those who are unsaved. It is according to His law and they will be
subject to that righteous judgment.

Col. 1:20, "and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself,
having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say,
whether things on earth or things in heaven."

This verse does not state that the demons will be saved.
Reconciliation means to bring someone or something into a right
relationship with another. The lawful and proper relationship of the
unsaved before God is damnation. Those who are condemned to
damnation are rightly condemned and their relation to God is proper.
They are eternally subjected to His judgment.

The demonic horde is not in heaven. This is speaking of God
reconciling His people to Himself -- those who who have died and gone
to be with God and those who are still living in this world. But, it
is only the Christian who is redeemed. Those who reject Christ are
not.

Rom. 8:19, "For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for
the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to
futility, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it,
in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its
slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children
of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the
pains of childbirth together until now."

Does creation have a will? No it does not. Obviously we have
figurative usage here. This is dealing with creation as a whole,
earth, sky, animals, stars, etc. All of creation was affected by
Adam's sin because Adam was the one who was in charge of it. Since
Adam's sin (and the sins of his progeny) are cleansed, then that
which Adam represented is also cleansed; namely, creation. Creation
did not have a redeeming sacrifice for its sin since creation did not
sin. Rather, as sin entered the world through Adam, when all sin is
finally dealt with, its effect will be removed from the creation that
was given to Adam in his dominion authority.

The angels who fell were not under Adam's representation. They had
their own freedom to choose what they wanted to do. They willingly
sinned. They willingly rebelled. And, they have no propitiation, no
atoning sacrifice to have their sins forgiven.

Also note that "all creation" does not always mean every created
thing. Look at Mark 16:15 Jesus said, "Go into all the world and
preach the gospel to all creation." All creation here is not
inclusive of the planets, stars, nebulae, nor the angels. We are
told to preach the gospel to people. And consider Col. 1:23, ". . .
the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in
all creation under heaven. . . " This is not speaking of angels,
planets, etc. It is a representative usage of people all over the
place.

Why is this important?

The Lake of Fire was created for the devil and his angels. The
devil and his fallen angels have no redeeming sacrifice the way we
do. The demonic forces will be cast into hell and since they are not
forgiven, their punishment is without end. Likewise, we see that
people are also thrown into the Lake of Fire. Since the angels'
condemnation is without end in the Lake of Fire, so to is the
punishment delivered to those people who are also cast into that very
same lake.

Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, `Depart
from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared
for the devil and his angels.
Rev. 20:14-15, And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.
This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone's name
was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the
lake of fire.
Mark 9:43, "And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is
better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to
go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,"
The demonic realm has no redeemer. Jesus did not bear their sins
in His body. He bore OUR sins in his body (1 Pet. 2:24). Since they
do NOT have a sin-bearer, they will remain in their sins. Their
punishment is eternal. Since there are people thrown into that SAME
lake of fire, their punishment is likewise eternal. Is hell
eternal? Yes. Are all people saved? No.