If God knew...

[RevOxley_501]

Originally Posted by fykusfire

I know Ninjawizards from other forums, and he mentioned here, so I came. Let me preface what I am about to say by stating that I believe I am one of the 144,000 Hebrews spoken of in Revelation. This used to follow me with strife, and a sort of negative stigma. However, I feel comfortable with stating this now. I am not looking for enemies.

glad to see you bro---either they are going to love eric for inviting the two of us or hate him lol---who knows. But from what I have read we have a pretty kind group of people here with no malice in their hearts.

Let me also state that I love everyone with everything I have. I am not here to pass judgment, or call names over doctrine, dogma, or human interpretation of anything. It just simply isn't my place, and it certainly isn't my job. But I felt compelled to post something here for everyone to ponder.

ditto all

We all should know by now that science has the LHC set for operation next year. I know many have thought about the destructive rammifications of such a machine. I present to you the more abstract rammifications instead. Ponder this if you will all.

my understanding of the LHC is that it isnt nearly powerful enough to do anything truly destructive. Of course if it sparks a black hole (im sure it cant), then that could certainly be the beginning of a very fast end for us---or beginning of something else.

When the machine is activated, we are supposed to have created a miniature "universe" for better or worse for mere moments in our relative time. What if then, that this "universe" creates intelligent beings that ponder whether we humans that created them exist? Beyond that, what if their "science" tells them that they have been on their planet for billions of years?

If their science tells them that, then i think to them it certainly would be billions of years---just like our own universe has been around in fact for billions of years--its not just the perception of billions of years, it really is that. Now, someone from another universe would probably measure that amount of time in an entirely different way, but it doesnt change the fact that it has been around for as long as it has.

Would that seem like "billions of years" to us here in the present earth? What are a "billion years" really then? It is easy to think that our world is the only, and the "end all be all." But it is much more thrilling to imagine that a being could be an origin point to all. And that said being owns, and begat all that is known within creation, at least in my opinion.

I think we should change our standard measurement----make it Earth years or Light years---when that is the case the time periods dont change at all.

now, if the LHC does create a universe and eventually spawn life, would the life forms believe that we (god) were directing their paths? would we send them a holy book to teach them salvation to a hell we too created? or would they take on the Deists or Atheists view point?

Not that this is proof of anything, it is simply a point to ponder on your own time. I believe that much is to be rectified within science and faith. But that is my own to believe. I will leave only with this for now instead. Science may devise an explanation, even an accurate one no less, for how we humans and all around became. But science can not, and will not, explain what existed before it.

Thanks to all that listened.

what if science does eventually explain things before time?

[NinjaWizards777]

Originally Posted by RevOxley_501

now, if the LHC does create a universe and eventually spawn life, would the life forms believe that we (god) were directing their paths? would we send them a holy book to teach them salvation to a hell we too created? or would they take on the Deists or Atheists view point?

Whether you believe in God or not, the conditions and rate of those conditions and knowledge would be VERY similar if not the very same

as far as what we would "send" them religiously or what the spawn creations believed I think is maybe the wrong question to ask.
if life honestly did spawn out of it, would we not try and interact with them in some way? If successful interaction was made would we not only try to learn about them but also show them "our ways"? I think its pretty fair to say we more than likley would in some form or another. Does that prove God exsists and is reaching out to us? nope.

But I think its naive to believe we wouldnt try and interact with them

Originally Posted by RevOxley_501

what if science does eventually explain things before time?

what if it does? what if it doesnt? What if God does exsist? what if he doesnt?

its still placing "faith" in one arena or the other....belief or otherwise reason to not have belive based on the thought/hope of somthing else. Beyond that, science will never be able to explain that which we were never aroudn to see...because if we were never there(the beging of time/creation/whatever) we could never say for absolute certainty, it would still come back to faith.

[fykusfire]

Originally Posted by RevOxley_501

my understanding of the LHC is that it isnt nearly powerful enough to do anything truly destructive. Of course if it sparks a black hole (im sure it cant), then that could certainly be the beginning of a very fast end for us---or beginning of something else.

Which could very well be true, that's yet to be seen. Either way, it is supposed to create what essentially is its own mini-verse. That much is not to be debated.

Originally Posted by RevOxley_501

If their science tells them that, then i think to them it certainly would be billions of years---just like our own universe has been around in fact for billions of years--its not just the perception of billions of years, it really is that. Now, someone from another universe would probably measure that amount of time in an entirely different way, but it doesnt change the fact that it has been around for as long as it has.

Billions of years purely in our measurement of time only. "Billions of years" is a relative measurement created by humanity. To a being bigger and greater than all creation, that could have just as easily taken mere "seconds," a "day," or even six "days" as the Bible dictates. As you go further and further out in the universe, the celestial bodies continue to get bigger, and thus their orbits do too. Keep in mind that we observe a year by our orbit around the sun. What about a galactic year for instance? Taken from wiki,

"Galactic year
The Galactic year is the time it takes Earth's solar system to revolve once around the galactic center. It comprises roughly 226 million Earth years."

I think you see where I am going with this. It appears to potentially be a matter of relative perspective with regard to the measurement of God's "day."

Originally Posted by RevOxley01

I think we should change our standard measurement----make it Earth years or Light years---when that is the case the time periods dont change at all.

I am not arguing as to whether humans are right in believing that we have been around for billions of human years.

Originally Posted by RevOxley_501

now, if the LHC does create a universe and eventually spawn life, would the life forms believe that we (god) were directing their paths? would we send them a holy book to teach them salvation to a hell we too created? or would they take on the Deists or Atheists view point?

This is something I was bringing to mind with the idea I presented. I wondered this myself.

Originally Posted by RevOxley01

what if science does eventually explain things before time?

Well, according to a scientist in this very field, it is not yet equipped to do so at least for now. Science's answer to the question of how we are here in existence is "we're here because we're here." It says that all of the matter in the universe was at the origin of time compressed into one atom, and this caused a major explosion (let there be light anyone?). How the crazy compressed matter atom got there is not able to be explained, and that creates a major problem for me with regard to throwing out the idea of a progenitor to the matter.

[RevOxley_501]

Originally Posted by NinjaWizards777

Whether you believe in God or not, the conditions and rate of those conditions and knowledge would be VERY similar if not the very same



as far as what we would "send" them religiously or what the spawn creations believed I think is maybe the wrong question to ask.
if life honestly did spawn out of it, would we not try and interact with them in some way? If successful interaction was made would we not only try to learn about them but also show them "our ways"? I think its pretty fair to say we more than likley would in some form or another. Does that prove God exsists and is reaching out to us? nope.

But I think its naive to believe we wouldnt try and interact with them

I think it is fair to say that we wouldnt even know if we DID create this universe, much less try and interact with it.

what if it does? what if it doesnt? What if God does exsist? what if he doesnt?

its still placing "faith" in one arena or the other....belief or otherwise reason to not have belive based on the thought/hope of somthing else. Beyond that, science will never be able to explain that which we were never aroudn to see...because if we were never there(the beging of time/creation/whatever) we could never say for absolute certainty, it would still come back to faith.

I still uphold that atheism is a lack of faith---but that point i tire of debating

[LordDust]

Originally Posted by RevOxley_501

I still uphold that atheism is a lack of faith---but that point i tire of debating

Not trying to debate(I've seen you discuss this before).
but.
It is impossible to have faith, to belive in, nothing.
Logistically.
If one hold faith in nothing they still hold faith in their faithlessness.
It is as such a self defeating practice.
A Nihilist believes in "Nihilism" therefore is not infact truly nihilistic.
In particular because they have given this faith an name.
Thus One can have no "religion" but having no faith is impossible, in particular if this lack of faith is given a name.

[NinjaWizards777]

Im intrested to hear more views just on WHY God might create the majority of humanity knowing they wouldnt come to the conclusion that he was..."completion", "salvation", etc.

Its just becoming more increasingly impossible for me to believe in a God that loveingly and thoughfully creates humans that he KNOWS will not choose him and therefore suffer. God is transcendent...yes...but there has to be more that Im simply not seeing here

Especailly when you think about the millions who were never/will never be, offered the message of Christs salvation in any way...how then could they be expected to choose Him if the only evidence of him was "creation and that they existed"? What can you learn about Christ and his payment for sins by looking at a flower? How can it be just to judge someone based on somthing they didnt have applicable knowledge of in the first place?

a nice reply to this from more than just rev, would be delightful

[LordDust]

Perhaps God is an optimist.
That there is any chance that somone will join him in heaven is enough for him to let then come into being.

Originally Posted by NinjaWizards777

How can it be just to judge someone based on somthing they didnt have applicable knowledge of in the first place?

Some would say that these sorts of people will arrive in neither heven or hell but "purgatory". Others would say the will be taken to a special part of hell which is not torture nor eternal bliss but instead something like a second earth.

[NinjaWizards777]

Originally Posted by LordDust

Perhaps God is an optimist.
That there is any chance that somone will join him in heaven is enough for him to let then come into being.

perhaps. Im willing to say that could be the case. Then again if he knows everything, wouldnt it just make sense to spare said humans the choice if he knew they ultimatly wouldnt "choose" that which led to being with him forever?

Originally Posted by LordDust

Some would say that these sorts of people will arrive in neither heven or hell but "purgatory". Others would say the will be taken to a special part of hell which is not torture nor eternal bliss but instead something like a second earth.

i am also willing to say this could be the case. However...the biblical support? slim to none

[LordDust]

I personally don't believe that god is as perfectly clairvoyant as we like to think he is.
Sure he know the future, but perhaps it is the different possible futures and not the definitive. That if he were alone in the heavens his judgment of the future would be perfect but because of the devil's work this is impossible.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by LordDust

I personally don't believe that god is as perfectly clairvoyant as we like to think he is.
Sure he know the future, but perhaps it is the different possible futures and not the definitive. That if he were alone in the heavens his judgment of the future would be perfect but because of the devil's work this is impossible.

Hello young man and welcome.

What we like to think and the way things really are often can be different things.

When I was 20 I came to realize and understand that I knew little of God or His ways. I made a decision that I wanted my understanding to be based on what God has said through the scripture instead of my own understanding or someone else`s understanding.

The idea was and is to believe what God has said and to reject any and all opinions of man that conflict with what God has said or declared through His prophets and apostles.

I`ve made bad decisions but that decision was a good one.

Here are some passages I think you should consider. Tell me what they mean if you can.


9Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Isaiah 46


3For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

Hebrews 4

20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

1st Peter

7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 13

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Ephesians 1

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Matthew 25

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Jeremiah