Welcome Revoxley501

[rodger]

Science of probability
If specific prophecies were fulfilled by the Messiah does the science of probability consider this "Proof" there is a God?

Anyone can make predictions--- that is easy. Having them fulfilled is another story. The more statements you make about the future and the greater the detail, the better the chances are that you will be proven wrong.
For example, how difficult do you think it would be to indicate the precise kind of death that a new, unknown religious leader would experience a thousand years from Today? Could you describe and predict a new method of execution not currently known---one that won't even be invented for hundreds of years? Thats what David did in 1000 B.C. when he wrote
Psalms 22 through the holy spirit.
Further, if you did think up 50 specific prophecies about some man in the future you will never meet, how difficult do you think it would be for that man to fulfill all 50 of your predictions? How hard would it be for him if 25 of your predictions were about what other people would do to him and were completely beyond his control?
It might be possible to arrange one or two of these prophecies, but it would be virtually impossible for any man to arrange and fulfill all these predictions in advance. If it can be proved that such prophecies were predicted of the messiah hundreds of years in advance, and one man fufilled all of them, then that man would logically have to be the Messiah.
God gave a great number of prophecies (more than 400) about the Messiah for at least two reasons. First, it would make identifying the Messiah obvious. And second, it would make an imposter's task impossible.
Now let us ask an intriguing question. If we assume some 456 prophecies are fulfilled in one person, what does the science of probability say about this? In brief, it says, if accurate predictions were made about a future Messiah and fulfilled years later by one person, this is reasonable proof that there is a God.
Here is why. The science of probability attempts to determine the chance that a given event will occur. Professor Emeritus of science at Westmont College, PeterStoner, has calculated the probability of one man fulfilling some of the major prophecies made concerning the Messiah. The estimates were worked out by 12 different classes of 600 college students.
The students carefully weighed all the factors, discussed each prophecy at length, and examined the various circumstances which might indicate that men had conspired together to fulfill a particular prophecy. They made their estimates conservative enough so that there was finally, unaimous agreement even among the skeptical students.
But then Professor Stoner took their estimates and made them even more conservative. He also encouraged other skeptics or scientists to make their own estimates to see if his figures for reveiw to a Committee of the American Scientific Affiliation. Upon examination, they verified that his calculations were dependable and accurate in regard to scientific material presented.
After examining eight different prophecies, Professor Stoner and his students conservatively estimate that the chance of one man fulfilling all eight prophecies was one in 10/17 (10 to the power of 17) 0.588
To show how large the number 10/17 is ( a figure with 17 zeros) Stoner gave this illustration. Imagine covering the entire state of texas with silver dollars to a level of two feet deep. The total number of silver dollars needed to cover the whole state would be
10/17. Now, choose just one of those silver dollars, mark it , and drop it from an airoplane. then throughly stir all the silver dollars all over the state.
When that has been done, blinfold a man, then tell him he can travel wherever he wishes in the state of texas.But sometime he must stop, reach down into two feet of silver dollars, and try to pull up that one specific silver dollar that has been marked.
Now, the chance of his finding that one silver dollar in the state of texas would be the chance the prophets had for eight prophecies coming true in any one man in the future.
Professor Stoner concluded: "The fulfillment of these eight prophecies alone proves that God inspired the writing of those prophecies to a definiteness which lacks only one chance in 10/17 of being absolute". Another way of saying this that any person who minimizes or ignores the significance of the biblical identifying signs concerning the Messiah would be foolish.
But of course, there are many more than eight prophecies. In another calculation used 48 propheceis ( even though he could of used 456) and arrived at the extremely conservation estimate that the probability of 48 prophecies being fulfilled by one person is 10/157.
And how big is 10/157? (0.064) In 10/157 years, an ant could actually move all the atoms in 600,000 trillion, trillion,trillion trillion of our universes a distance of 200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 miles. He could do this moving one atom at a time, moving each atom a distance of 30 billion light years, and traveling only at the speed of one inch 15 billion years!/6 .
This incredibly large number illustrates why it is impossible for anyone to have fulfilled all the messianic prophecies by chance. In fact , a leading authority on probability theory, Emile borel, states in his book Probabilities and life, that once we go past one chance in 10/50, the probabilities are so small its impossible to think they will ever occur.
What this means is, it is impossible for these 48 prophecies to be fulfilled apart from the one whom appointed it God.



God bless

[RevOxley_501]

Originally Posted by rodger

Science of probability
If specific prophecies were fulfilled by the Messiah does the science of probability consider this "Proof" there is a God?

Hi Rodger, thanks for the welcoming challenge--this should be alot of fun. I am gonna take this point by point, might take me all day since I am at work--but im gonna work on it as the opportunity arises.

Anyone can make predictions--- that is easy. Having them fulfilled is another story. The more statements you make about the future and the greater the detail, the better the chances are that you will be proven wrong.

I think that is undeniably true

For example, how difficult do you think it would be to indicate the precise kind of death that a new, unknown religious leader would experience a thousand years from Today? Could you describe and predict a new method of execution not currently known---one that won't even be invented for hundreds of years? Thats what David did in 1000 B.C. when he wrote
Psalms 22 through the holy spirit.

I didn't see any prediction whatsoever of crucifixion there...a few foreshadowed moments yes--but crucifixion is not in the least mentioned...if it is and I missed it please point it out to me. Jesus quotes Ps 22:1 -" Eli Eli, llamma Sabach-thani" ,but that isn't surprising in the least.

Further, if you did think up 50 specific prophecies about some man in the future you will never meet, how difficult do you think it would be for that man to fulfill all 50 of your predictions? How hard would it be for him if 25 of your predictions were about what other people would do to him and were completely beyond his control?

That would be intensely difficult-no doubt. The problem isn't that Jesus didnt fulfil tons of prophecies from Torah or the OT according to the NT---the problem is that there are no credible sources that can verify that EACH of those prophecies were truly fulfilled outside of the Bible. Don't take this the wrong way, but JR Tolkein had a way of developing extremely complicated themes in his books and series, and not losing one step throughout---but that doesn't make it Gods word or infallible--except in the context that it calls itself infallible. Sorry for the seque

It might be possible to arrange one or two of these prophecies, but it would be virtually impossible for any man to arrange and fulfill all these predictions in advance. If it can be proved that such prophecies were predicted of the messiah hundreds of years in advance, and one man fufilled all of them, then that man would logically have to be the Messiah.
God gave a great number of prophecies (more than 400) about the Messiah for at least two reasons. First, it would make identifying the Messiah obvious. And second, it would make an imposter's task impossible.

thusly your definition of The Bible is that in some form it is Gods word and totally infallible? is that a correct assumption?

Now let us ask an intriguing question. If we assume some 456 prophecies are fulfilled in one person, what does the science of probability say about this? In brief, it says, if accurate predictions were made about a future Messiah and fulfilled years later by one person, this is reasonable proof that there is a God.

indeed it is

Here is why. The science of probability attempts to determine the chance that a given event will occur. Professor Emeritus of science at Westmont College, PeterStoner, has calculated the probability of one man fulfilling some of the major prophecies made concerning the Messiah. The estimates were worked out by 12 different classes of 600 college students.
The students carefully weighed all the factors, discussed each prophecy at length, and examined the various circumstances which might indicate that men had conspired together to fulfill a particular prophecy. They made their estimates conservative enough so that there was finally, unaimous agreement even among the skeptical students.

Not that I doubt this in the least---but i would be greatful for a source on this study.

But then Professor Stoner took their estimates and made them even more conservative. He also encouraged other skeptics or scientists to make their own estimates to see if his figures for reveiw to a Committee of the American Scientific Affiliation. Upon examination, they verified that his calculations were dependable and accurate in regard to scientific material presented.



After examining eight different prophecies, Professor Stoner and his students conservatively estimate that the chance of one man fulfilling all eight prophecies was one in 10/17 (10 to the power of 17) 0.588
To show how large the number 10/17 is ( a figure with 17 zeros) Stoner gave this illustration. Imagine covering the entire state of texas with silver dollars to a level of two feet deep. The total number of silver dollars needed to cover the whole state would be
10/17. Now, choose just one of those silver dollars, mark it , and drop it from an airoplane. then throughly stir all the silver dollars all over the state.
When that has been done, blinfold a man, then tell him he can travel wherever he wishes in the state of texas.But sometime he must stop, reach down into two feet of silver dollars, and try to pull up that one specific silver dollar that has been marked.
Now, the chance of his finding that one silver dollar in the state of texas would be the chance the prophets had for eight prophecies coming true in any one man in the future.

?!

Professor Stoner concluded: "The fulfillment of these eight prophecies alone proves that God inspired the writing of those prophecies to a definiteness which lacks only one chance in 10/17 of being absolute". Another way of saying this that any person who minimizes or ignores the significance of the biblical identifying signs concerning the Messiah would be foolish.

But of course, there are many more than eight prophecies. In another calculation used 48 propheceis ( even though he could of used 456) and arrived at the extremely conservation estimate that the probability of 48 prophecies being fulfilled by one person is 10/157.



And how big is 10/157? (0.064) In 10/157 years, an ant could actually move all the atoms in 600,000 trillion, trillion,trillion trillion of our universes a distance of 200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 miles. He could do this moving one atom at a time, moving each atom a distance of 30 billion light years, and traveling only at the speed of one inch 15 billion years!/6 .
This incredibly large number illustrates why it is impossible for anyone to have fulfilled all the messianic prophecies by chance.

In fact , a leading authority on probability theory, Emile borel, states in his book Probabilities and life, that once we go past one chance in 10/50, the probabilities are so small its impossible to think they will ever occur.
What this means is, it is impossible for these 48 prophecies to be fulfilled apart from the one whom appointed it God.

It does sound impossible...in fact it may be---see...none of this supposed study does anything to prove that 1: Jesus Christ even existed or 2: That Jesus Christ ACTUALLY (outside of the Bible) fulfilled ANY prophecies whatsoever. The problem then isnt the propability, we will eternally agree there---but the burden of proof lies on you, the church, and the bible itself to prove that anything in that Bible even happened. That is the challenge---once you can prove that the Bible is infallible and that the Christ story is not just a permutation of tens of OTHER Christ stories then you can start dealing with the propabilities.

If i write a book one day and say that in a few hundred years someone else will write a book or series of books and it will reference my book---but the books, both mine and the new books are entirely fiction but they repudiate the claims made in my work of fiction----would that make my book a word of G-d?

[fykusfire]

We have been over the fact that Yeshu was referenced in other Roman non-Biblical works as Christos, verified as historically accurate at BleedZao and UU Rev. That much has been definitively proven. The rest, well those are great points to ponder. This was what I was saying to you before though. If you are not the type that rests his/herself's beliefs upon faith alone (which is understandable, believe me), then unless Christ comes to you and reveals himself, there is no real way to know if a man 2,000 years prior to your existence did anything. Which is why many churches correctly state that you should seek a relationship with him directly instead. I know you don't believe me, but I know Christ is who he says he is because he revealed it as such. And the level of depth in all described to me in our initial encouter proves to me (and me only of course) that I did not create such a vision myself. I am still learning things from what was revealed to me to this day. Reality almost seems like mere child's play to me since.

[RevOxley_501]

Originally Posted by fykusfire

We have been over the fact that Yeshu was referenced in other Roman non-Biblical works as Christos, verified as historically accurate at BleedZao and UU Rev. That much has been definitively proven. The rest, well those are great points to ponder.

so existence is likely---but the rest?

thanks for answering

edit: just saw you added to it:

I understand that what you have experienced suffices for YOU---you cant, and i understand that you do not, expect it to suffice for me. I respect that---I believe your faith is at least as real to you if not more, than mine was to me. I too had experiences, prophesied, and felt god reveal himself to me---i can reject those experiences now because i believe the human mind to be a very powerful thing---other than that one thing, you and I are very alike and believe alot of the same things (about our society at least)--it almost seems divine that we met through a little metal band in PA.

[fykusfire]

Sorry about that Rev, see the edit above. I again completely understand your view, and I don't blame you for it. It is hard to view one's life and all that is within one's self when you have to filter it through the ruleset of the divine. It is scary to ponder.

[RevOxley_501]

i edited also bro

[fykusfire]

Originally Posted by RevOxley_501

so existence is likely---but the rest?

thanks for answering

edit: just saw you added to it:

I understand that what you have experienced suffices for YOU---you cant, and i understand that you do not, expect it to suffice for me. I respect that---I believe your faith is at least as real to you if not more, than mine was to me. I too had experiences, prophesied, and felt god reveal himself to me---i can reject those experiences now because i believe the human mind to be a very powerful thing---other than that one thing, you and I are very alike and believe alot of the same things (about our society at least)--it almost seems divine that we met through a little metal band in PA.

I of course agree that the chances had to be small for us to have met that way, however much like everything else, it is proof of nothing. What I really find bizarre is the parallel that exists between us with regard to our faith. I was once an atheist, and saw the world exactly as you do now. But due to many experiences from the age of 17 to the vision in 2004, I regained my faith, and it became so strong that it is not breakable by anyone or anything. How a young atheist Hebrew became a Messianic marked as one of the 144,000 evangelists boggles even my own mind. Nonetheless, I don't deny it.

You must understand, I wasn't into the Bible before the vision. I had no idea what the 144,000 were, I had little to no Biblical knowledge, and definitely would never have considered myself to be anything even closely resembling clergy. Since then, all I see people of faith and people of non-faith doing is bickering over what we perceive to be possible, what we perceive to be truth, and what we perceive God or the lack thereof to be. All of which is necessary to purge useless belief systems or decrees of men of course, but is also rife with human error, just as you proclaim of the Bible and its errancy.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't seek to demean the power of the human brain. I even see all humans as part of one large "brain" if you will. And to me, the bickering just boils down to the right and left balancing each other. I don't for a second believe though that I can just make up scientific principles such as M theory that I had zero exposure to, or give decrees stating that the meaning of life is that "the seeming insignificances of life are what make life significant" out of thin air. I also certainly do not believe I was able to accompany such a proclamation with an instance displaying what that meant exactly.

I wasn't ever a science or math buff, and I had no idea how the universe worked. I am and I do now. I believe God literally made me smarter by his reveal of himself to me. If there was a way that humans could just learn anything by osmosis, I am sure every learning institution the world over would be using it. However, the truth is that human science doesn't have the capacity to prove that humans are connected enough with all information around them to learn anything out of thin air, whether possible or not. So if you think it was all the power of my mind, the burden of proof is now on you to prove such a thing, just as you state that the burden of proof of the Bible is on God and his followers.

I'll tell you this, science isn't going to be much help to you on that journey...... Much <3 to you Matty Pants.

[rodger]

Nice to meet you fykusfire and welcome to the word of God.


God bless

[rodger]

Yes it can be looked at that way, but keep in mind there were 12 witnesses to this prove that Jesus was born from heaven and is the son of man, That Jesus is Christ who created all things through God.
Now out of these 12 witnesses proclaiming the word 11 were killed for the sake of their testimony to the word of Jesus Christ (because of truth they layed there lives down.) As I would lay my life down for the truth that I witnessed today through faith.
When a person asked God to understand to be understood with a opened mind, God answers that person. Here is a time line that Rick posted a while back.


Timeline

Around 4 B.C.:
Jesus is born. His birth was "in the days of Herod the king" (Matthew
2:1), and scholars tell us that Herod died in 4 B.C. (see for example
Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary , verse 1, and People's New
Testament , verse 1). As these two commentaries point out, Jesus is
believed to have been born in the last year of Herod's reign, which
puts His birth at around 4 B.C.

Around 30 A.D.:
Jesus is crucified. In Luke 3:23 we are told that Jesus was about 30
years old when He began His ministry, and scholars tell us that His
ministry probably lasted about three and a half years (see for
example Wesley's Explanatory Notes , verse 23). So Jesus died
somewhere around 30 A.D.

Around 30 A.D. (continued):
The Church is born. Jesus was in the tomb on the Passover Sabbath,
and the day of Pentecost always fell on the fiftieth day counting
from the day after the Passover Sabbath (see for example People's New
Testament , verse 1, and Gill's Exposition of the Bible ). Acts 2:1-4
tells us that on the day of Pentecost the Holy Spirit filled the
original disciples, along with manifestations such as the sound as of
a mighty wind, visible tongues of fire, speaking in tongues, and the
first preaching of the Gospel (in which a harvest of souls began to
be gathered in). This event is often regarded as signaling the birth
of the Church.

45-48 A.D.:
The book of James is written. Most non-Catholic Bible scholars agree
that James was one of the half-brothers of Jesus (Catholics disagree
because they believe that Jesus' mother had no other children) and
the one who presided over the "Jerusalem Conference" in Acts 15:1-30
(48-50 A.D.). There are several other men named James in the New
Testament (including two apostles), but there are strong reasons for
eliminating them as the author of the book of James (see for example
People's New Testament ).

48-50 A.D.:
The apostle Paul is in Antioch and he writes his first letter, which
we call the book of Galatians. This is during the time period of Acts
15:25-35.

Around 50 A.D.:
The Gospel of Matthew is believed to have been written sometime
around 50 A.D. by the apostle Matthew (although possibly it was
written a few years earlier or later). The Bible Knowledge Commentary
(Walvoord and Zuck, Dallas Theological Seminary) describes a number
of theories which scholars have proposed concerning the dates and
sources for the "synoptic Gospels" (Matthew, Mark, and Luke), and
suggests that a date somewhere around 50 A.D. for Matthew's Gospel
would satisfy all of the issues.

50-54 A.D.:
The apostle Paul writes 1 and 2 Thessalonians from Corinth (Silas and
Timothy are listed as co-authors of these books. See 1 Thessalonians
1:1 and 2 Thessalonians 1:1). This is during the time period of Acts
18:1-11.

54-55 A.D.:
The apostle Paul spends roughly 3 years in Ephesus (from 53 to 55
A.D.), where he writes his second letter to the church at Corinth
(his first letter to them has been lost). We call this second letter
the book of 1 Corinthians (Sosthenes is listed as a co-author of this
book. See 1 Corinthians 1:1). This is during the time period of Acts
19:1-41.

56-57 A.D.:
The apostle Paul writes his fourth letter to the church at Corinth
from Macedonia (his third letter to them has been lost). We call this
fourth letter the book of 2 Corinthians (Timothy is listed as a co-
author of this book. See 2 Corinthians 1:1). This is during the time
period of Acts 20:1-2.

Late winter/early spring of 57-58 A.D.:
The apostle Paul writes his letter to the Romans (Tertius is listed
as the one who actually wrote this letter, so he was probably taking
dictation from Paul. See Romans 16:22. Other passages indicate that
Paul may have frequently dictated his letters to someone else, and
that he preferred to write the concluding remarks himself. See 1
Corinthians 16:21, Galatians 6:11, Colossians 4:18, 2 Thessalonians
3:17, and Philemon 1:19, for example). This is during the time period
of Acts 20:2-6.

57-59 A.D.:
The Gospel of Mark is believed to have been written during this time
period. The early church fathers believed that this Gospel was
written by Mark, an associate of the apostle Peter and the one who is
referred to as "John, also called Mark" in Acts 12:12.

58-60 A.D.:
The Gospel of Luke is believed to have been written during this time
period. Luke was a physician who sometimes traveled with the apostle
Paul, and he is also the author of the book of Acts.

60-63 A.D.:
The apostle Paul is under house arrest in Rome for four years. He
writes the book of Ephesians around 60 A.D., Colossians around 60-61
A.D. (Timothy is listed as a co-author of this book. See Colossians
1:1), Philippians around 61-62 A.D. (Timothy is listed as a co-author
of this book. See Philippians 1:1), and Philemon around the summer of
62 A.D. (Timothy is listed as a co-author of this book. See Philemon
1:1). This is during the time period of Acts 28:14-31.

60-62 A.D.:
The book of Acts is written by Dr. Luke (see Colossians 4:14), Paul's
part-time traveling companion and the author of the Gospel of Luke.

60-65 A.D.:
The apostle John writes the books of 1, 2, and 3 John.

63-66 A.D.:
The apostle Paul writes 1 Timothy and Titus from Macedonia.

64 A.D.:
The apostle Peter writes the book of 1 Peter.

64-68 A.D.:
The apostle Peter writes the book of 2 Peter. This is the last New
Testament book that Peter will write. He is believed to have been
martyred in late 67 or early 68 A.D.

67 A.D.:
The apostle Paul writes 2 Timothy while imprisoned in Rome. This is
the last New Testament book that Paul will write. He is believed to
have been martyred in 68 A.D.

68-69 A.D.:
An unknown person writes the book of Hebrews. Some scholars believe
that the apostle Paul wrote Hebrews, but the evidence that he did not
write this book is very strong (for example, notice that all of the
books written by Paul say that they were written by Paul, yet Hebrews
is anonymous). Many other scholars believe that there is strong
evidence that Barnabas wrote Hebrews. Barnabas (who is mentioned a
number of times in Acts chapter 11 through chapter 15) was the
apostle Paul's traveling companion, so he would have picked up many
of Paul's phrases and expressions from hearing Paul preach so much.
This may be why Hebrews sounds similar to Paul's writings, even
though it does not say that it was written by Paul (Paul's letters
all say that they were written by him) and it does not have Paul's
usual greeting.

It is interesting to note that the human authors of other books and
portions of Scripture are unknown as well, such as the Old Testament
books of 1 and 2 Kings, Job, Esther, and 1 and 2 Chronicles.

67-80 A.D.:
Jude writes his letter. He calls himself a brother of James. There
are several men named Jude in the New Testament, but for a number of
reasons many scholars believe that Jude was one of the half-brothers
of Jesus.

85-95 A.D.:
The Gospel of John is believed to have been written during this time
period by the apostle John.

95-96 A.D.:
The apostle John writes the book of Revelation while in exile on the
island of Patmos. This is the last New Testament book that John will
write. At this point he is the last surviving member of the twelve
apostles and perhaps the only apostle to have died a natural death.
The other ten of the original twelve apostles were martyred (not
counting Judas Iscariot, who hung himself):

Andrew: Crucified.
Bartholomew: Crucified.
James, son of Alphaeus: Crucified.
James, son of Zebedee: Death by the sword.
Matthew: Death by the sword.
Peter: Crucified upside-down at his own request (he did not feel
worthy to be crucified in the same manner as the Lord).
Philip: Crucified.
Simon the Zealot: Crucified.
Thaddaeus: Death by arrows.
Thomas: Death by a spear thrust.
140 A.D.:
The first formal list of the books of the New Testament is generally
believed to have been published in 140 A.D. by Marcion (The History
of Christianity, Dr. Tim Dowley, p.106).


Hope comes first then fromthat hope comes beleive (faith) and pure love follows.

May God open your eye's in Jesus name.

[fykusfire]

I am prepared to make such a sacrifice now in this age. Does that give you an idea of how much I believe Rodger or Rev?