Reasoning together in the holy spirit

[rodger]

What is your reasoning?

Matthew 24:29:31

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not shed its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
(See also Mark 13:24:25 and Revelation 6:12:13)

30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn and beat their breasts and lament in anguish, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [in brilliancy and splendour. See also Mark 13:26

31 And he will send out His angels with a load trumpet call, and they will gather His chosen from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. See also Mark 13:27

As fellow christians in the holy spirit, what are your resonings of these questions through the holy bible.?

1 Who are the first fruits?

2 Who have came out after the great tribulation?

3 What is it mean"t by the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not shed its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.?

4 When will we see the lord coming down on the clouds of heaven with great power and great glory, before or after the tribulation?

5 When will the lord Rapture his chosen one's from the four corners of the earth, after or before the tribulation.


God bless always

[antenicenechurch]

You asked: What is it mean"t by the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not shed its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken?

Response: I don't know about you, but I take that quite literally.

You asked: When will the lord Rapture his chosen one's from the four corners of the earth, after or before the tribulation.

Response: First you must demonstrate that a rapture will occur as most fundamentalists assert. Can you find the word rapture in the Bible? The history of the doctrine of the rapture actually began with the teachings of John Darby. The term was popularized further by William Eugene Blackstone, "Jesus is Coming" and a final inclusion in the Scofield Reference Bible. The word itself(with today's definition) never appears, and as I will prove later, the concept of the Rapture certainly doesn’t either.

However, it is important to note that the word "rapture" is taken from the Latin "raptus" when the origianl Greek was translated to Latin. It is quite clear that this word has been corrupted to mean what it does today. That somehow, somewhere, all Christians will fly away.

This rapture theory was clearly not the opinion of the disciples in the Early Church.

The Bible abounds with references to what will happen at the second advent (the return of our Lord and savior). Rapture theorists love to use this verse:

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Pay close attention to what is being said here. “The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” Now, I don’t know about you, but this doesn’t sound like a quiet event to me in the sense of some secret rapture.

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

These two verses give us a clear message. Those who died first (naturally) will be the first to reach heaven, then those of us which are alive and on Earth will be next meaning that there will be Christians alive when Christ returns. There is no hint of a magic rapture here.

In II Thessalonians we read:

2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.


2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Let no man deceive you by any means; in other words, listen to Christ and Our Father’s Word. There will come a falling away first. One can make the argument here that the term “falling away” is very vague but, obviously, this falling away must and has occurred. The vast majority of Christians today follow the doctrines either of Rome, the Reformers or various fundamentalist theorists.

The Greek for falling away, found in Strongs #G0646, means defection from the truth as in a revolt or rebellion. In this case the rapture doctrine is a departure from the Word of God,i.e. truth. There’s also been some confusion on the latter part of the verse.

Who is the “man of sin” and “son of perdition”? Perdition, Greek apoleia (Strong’s #G0684), ruin or loss. Quite clearly this son of ruin or loss is none other than Satan since he is the only one who is sealed for destruction throughout the Bible. The term revealed (Strong’s G#0601) means to take off the cover; disclose. In other words, Satan himself will be revealed to the world. This hasn’t happened yet. This finally will happen when Satan comes as the antichrist.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-11

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Note the first verse. “Him [Christ], whose coming [singular] is after..” Christ comes once after Satan! It also says that “God shall send them strong delusion so that they shall believe a lie.” This is another indicator. There will be a lot of people fooled by Satan and will believe a lie. The rapture theory is just one of those lies.

Christ himself talks about his return in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. You should study these verses because these are the words of Christ Himself about His own return.

Matthew 24
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

One of the very clear messages of this passage is that there will be deceit all over the place and it, if possible, could even deceive those who are the elect of God!

Regardless of what you believe, you should know these signs given by the Word.

Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

There is just no room for a rapture in Matthew 24:1-12 and here we have a verse talking about the “he that shall endure unto the end.” This verse is preparing God’s elect for the long haul. Those of us who are alive in these last days will have to endure until the end. Again, there’s no room for a rapture here.

Matthew 24:15
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

You’ll notice that I highlighted 2 Thessalonians 2:4 but did not cover it. Now, I will do so because it makes more sense.

2 Thessalonians 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

This is that same “son of peridition,” or Satan. He’s going to exalt himself as God in a very blasphemous and important way.

1 Corinthians 6:19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple [naos] of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Ephesians 2:20-21
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

It is evident from the surrounding verses that this is Satan who will set himself up in the hearts and minds of many (including even brick and mortar churches) as Christ. In other words, Satan will come as a false Christ!

This is the true danger of the rapture theory. This is why Christ says what he does in Matthew 24:

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Christ will come just like in verse 27. He’ll come from the east and go unto the west. Again, does this denote any sort of rapture? He comes one time, from the east unto the west as the sun does. The word lightning should be rendered sun because the sun rises from the east and sets in the west.

And here again, we have a very distinct order. The tribulation takes place and then Christ returns with no rapture taking place anytime before this. The elect are here on Earth awaiting the return of Jesus the Christ.

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is perhaps one of the most famous references that is used to support a rapture:

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

Look at the context. What about this supports a rapture? The answer is simple. Nothing! Read Matthew 24:46 at the bottom there. It clearly says, “Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.” In other words, the Blessed one (thoughs who will enter unto the Kingdom) are the ones still in the field working. The ones taken are not the blessed ones.

Why? Because the ones who are taken are the ones who have fallen away! These are the ones fooled by the words of men and ultimately of the antichrist himself who will exalt himself as Christ returned. These ones who are taken are probably a part of a rapture, but they’ll not get the rapture that they expected. They’ll fall to the deceit that Christ warns about over and over again.

Finally, we’ll go over another rapture theory favorite:

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
51 ¶Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Let us go to Revelation 8, 9, and 10 to find out what this trump is when the last trumpet shall sound and the dead raised and we’ll be changed.

Revelation 8:1
1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
7 ¶The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Revelation 9
1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
…
14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

Revelation 10
1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:
2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,
3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.
4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.
5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
8 ¶And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.
9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.
10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.
11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

This describes the 7 trumpets which the 7 angels shall sound a trump with. We go back to 1 Corinthians 15:52 which confirms that this will happen at the sounding of the last trumpet which we clearly see in Revelation is the return of God!

Only in accepting the truths of the Early Church can we understand such important issues as this. I strongly urge you to pray and study this more.

[rodger]

Sorry if I misinterpreted the meaning of (rapture), my own thoughts of the meaning of rapture is transfiguration from flesh to spirit beings Angels through the coming of our lord Jesus, at the end of the tribulation.
So controversy can be eliminated the word I us now is gathering (transfiguration).

As two will be in the field and one will be taken.
The one that stays is the one that is transformed to spirit being Angel,
as No flesh can survive the brightness of our Lord Jesus coming.


Must I be carried to the skies ,
On flowery beds of ease,
While others fought to win the prize ,
And sailed through bloody seas?




2 Thess 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

1 Who are the first fruits?

Revelation 14.1-5
The Lamb and the 144,000
14Then I looked, and there was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion! And with him were one hundred and forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2And I heard a voice from heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; the voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps, 3and they sing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the one hundred forty-four thousand who have been redeemed from the earth. 4It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins; these follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They have been redeemed from humankind as first fruits for God and the Lamb, 5and in their mouth no lie was found; they are blameless.



2 Who have came out after the great tribulation?
Revelation 7:9-17
9After this I looked, and there was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, robed in white, with palm branches in their hands. 10They cried out in a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11And all the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12singing, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honour and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”
13Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, robed in white, and where have they come from?” 14I said to him, “Sir, you are the one that knows.” Then he said to me, “These are they who have come out of the great ordeal; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15For this reason they are before the throne of God, and worship him day and night within his temple, and the one who is seated on the throne will shelter them. 16They will hunger no more, and thirst no more; the sun will not strike them, nor any scorching heat; 17for the Lamb at the centre of the throne will be their shepherd, and he will guide them to springs of the water of life, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

3 What is it meant by the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not shed its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.?

JOEL 2:5:11
#5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoured the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array. Rev. 9.7-9

#6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.

#7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:

#8 neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.

#9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.

#10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: Rev. 8.12

#11 and the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp ishe is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord very great: for lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it? Rev. 6.17


4 When will we see the lord coming down on the clouds of heaven with great power and great glory, before or after the tribulation?
After the tribulation

Matthew 24:29:31

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not shed its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Joel 2: 28:32
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.


5 When will the lord Rapture his chosen one's from the four corners of the earth, after or before the tribulation.
There is no rapture but as the bible states (a gathering) to from the four corners of the earth)

Thess 4:13:14
13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope.

14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
For he is the God of the living and not the dead

Mark 12:23;27

23 At the resurrection (when they arise) whose wife will she be? For all seven had been married to her."


24 Jesus said to them, "Are you not misled because you do not know the scriptures or the power of God?


25 When they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but they are like the angels in heaven.


26 As for the dead being raised, have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God told him, 'I am the God of Abraham, (the) God of Isaac, and (the) God of Jacob'?


27 He is not God of the dead but of the living. You are greatly misled."
Thess 4:15:16

15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. ( not asleep but ,angels in heaven according to Mark 12:23;27)

16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. (first fruits 144000)

Revelations 14:3:4

And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.


These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb.


Thess 4:17

17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. (As angles in kingdom of heaven)

Rev 14:11;13

And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

For those who are saved and die go straight to heaven at this present time, and become angels, and for those who are not saved await judgement in a dark dark place




God bless always

[Dave Sargeant]

Rodger. I wonder what the sign of the son of man is. Could it be that all will see it or is it an astronomical sign? Note. All tribes, nations will mourn. I have thought on these questions for years. I do not accept a secret ( rapture). It will be an awakening, trumpet, voice. Dave.

[Dave Sargeant]

Antiniceanchurch. The dead in Christ shall rise first. Probably those in their graves, those alive join them in the air so together they meet the Lord and are forever with him. That's my understanding of the passage. Dave.