All men are forgiven??? - Page 14 - Christian Doctrine Discussion, Debate Forums, Christian Blogs and Chat Rooms

Russell · #**131** 06.30.2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonnycool

Russell.
In the John 5:14 encounter Jesus heals a man who had been ill for 38 years. No mention is made of sins being forgiven, only sickness relieved. There was no change of character: The man went away and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well. John 5:15
John.

(John 5:11 [KJV])
He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk.
(John 5:14 [KJV])
Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
Your sure there is no mention of forgiveness of sins or an indication there was forgiveness applied ??????

(Matt 9:5 [KJV])
For whether is easier, to say, [Thy] sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?
(Matt 9:6 [KJV])
But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
Jesus uses the same wording for both men. Your sure there is no forgiveness offered to one of the men????

Russell · #**132** 06.30.2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonnycool

Russell.

There was no change of character:
john.

Correct! But!
If he didn't want more and worse sickness to come upon him he was commanded by Jesus to sin no more".
Physical Sin is associated with sickness.

Russell · #**133** 06.30.2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonnycool

Russell.

I disagree. Only God can forgive sins....

john.

Dear John
You can disagree. But who are you seriously disagreeing with????
Once again John I am only repeating what the passage says. You think you are disagreeing with me but I am saying no more than what is written in the verse. I am not adding to it or taking from it.
JOH 20:23 (Jesus said) Whose soever SINs ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever SINs ye retain, they are retained.

Remit
Aphiemi: 863 ajfivhmi Aphiemi (af-ee'-ay-mee);
Word Origin: Greek, Verb
from (575) and hiemi (to send, an intens. form of eimi, to go)

to send away
1. to bid going away or depart
  1. of a husband divorcing his wife
2. to send forth, yield up, to expire
3. to let go, let alone, let be
  1. to disregard
  2. to leave, not to discuss now, (a topic) 1c
of teachers, writers and speakers
1. 1. to omit, neglect
2. to let go, give up a debt, forgive, to remit
3. to give up, keep no longer
to permit, allow, not to hinder, to give up a thing to a person
to leave, go way from one
1. in order to go to another place
2. to depart from any one
3. to depart from one and leave him to himself so that all mutual claims are abandoned
4. to desert wrongfully
5. to go away leaving something behind
6. to leave one by not taking him as a companion
7. to leave on dying, leave behind one
8. to leave so that what is left may remain, leave remaining
9. abandon, leave destitute

Retain
Krateo: 2902 kratevw Krateo (krat-eh'-o);
Word Origin: Greek, Verb
from (2904)

to have power, be powerful
1. to be chief, be master of, to rule
to get possession of
1. to become master of, to obtain
2. to take hold of
3. to take hold of, take, seize
  1. to lay hands on one in order to get him into one's power
to hold
1. to hold in the hand
2. to hold fast, i.e. not discard or let go
  1. to keep carefully and faithfully
3. to continue to hold, to retain
  1. of death continuing to hold one
  2. to hold in check, restrain

Russell · #**134** 06.30.2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonnycool

Russell.

Just a quick point. I'm sure we can keep it simple for now, (when do you return from your holiday)?

What you said about the atonement is right. The Israelite Day of atonement was given to the nation of Israel and it was meant as a shadow of the sacrifice of Christ. One did not need to be in Jerusalem or even in Israel to benefit from it. But it was only for Israel, no other nation benefitted from it or the sacrifice of Christ.
Rom 9:6 It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned."[b] 8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."[c]

The same thing Israel foreshadowed is the reality now for the chosen. Christians are the true Israel and the atonement was given just for us.
(when do you return from your holiday)?
john.

Monday!
I will have to meditate on your point. I have not been lead by God into the Epistles as of yet.
First God had to take me into the Gospels to understand what Jesus taught and cleanse my mind of all the trashy teachings I've learned over the years. Then He lead me into the OT to see the root of the Gospel and how the Gospel has never changed from when it was first preached to Abraham. Next He is taking me into the Epistles which I'm very sure will not contradict the teachings of the OT or Jesus but affirm them and stay in line with the rest of scripture.

Russell · #**135** 07.01.2009

>>>>Christians are the true Israel and the atonement was given just for us.<<<<
Dear John
An assumption of your doctrine or a fact of scripture????
Hhhhmmm!

jonnycool · #**136** 07.01.2009

Quote:

You can disagree.

I know Russell.

Quote:

But who are you seriously disagreeing with????

You.

Quote:

Once again John I am only repeating what the passage says. You think you are disagreeing with me but I am saying no more than what is written in the verse. I am not adding to it or taking from it.
JOH 20:23 (Jesus said) Whose soever SINs ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever SINs ye retain, they are retained.

Have you checked out what the meanings this word has and why settle on the one you want? Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins is there? Heb 9:22.
So, if Paul, George or Ringo says I forgive you then between the aggrieved parties, Paul and George and Ringo it's passed but: ...For I know my transgressions,
and my sin is always before me.
Against you, you only, have I sinned
and done what is evil in your sight... Ps 51:somewhere.

I think.

And that takes a blood sacrifice for cleansing.

It's not up to man to send anyone to hell! (to send away).

I have told others that their sins are forgiven because of the things they have told me. I recognise where they are at. I have told others that their sins are not forgiven because they think they must prove their righteousness to a God that says we have none.
To remit is to let go of, not to regard, and to retain is to keep hold of. But never believe we can send another to hell or to heaven because that is just Papist.

Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

How's your holiday going? It's in the 90's here and it's a sweat just to sit.

I've got to rush, we have a visitor arriving any time now.

Quote:

>>>>Christians are the true Israel and the atonement was given just for us.<<<<
Dear John
An assumption of your doctrine or a fact of scripture????
Hhhhmmm!

The atonement was given to Israel alone, no other nation was blessed by it. The same as always, we are true Israel. 2 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people of his own, so that you may proclaim the virtues 27 of the one who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 2:10 You 28 once were not a people, but now you are God’s people. You were shown no mercy, 29 but now you have received mercy.

147:19 He proclaims his word to Jacob, his statutes and regulations to Israel.
147:20 He has not done so with any other nation; they are not aware of his regulations.
Praise the Lord!
I've got to rush. Catch yer later.

john.

Russell · #**137** 07.01.2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonnycool

Have you checked out what the meanings this word...
john.

Yes! I posted it for you!

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonnycool

It's not up to man to send anyone to hell! (to send away).
john.

Who said anything about sending people to Hell???? You will have to show me where I said that.
The verse says "Remit and Retain". If it is used in the context of physical sin it makes sense. If the sins are "remitted or sent away" the person is forgiven and healed. If the sins are "retained or not sent away" then they are subject to the curse of the sin. ie: sickness and disease.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonny

I have told others that their sins are forgiven because of the things they have told me. I recognize where they are at. I have told others that their sins are not forgiven because they think they must prove their righteousness to a God that says we have none.
To remit is to let go of, not to regard, and to retain is to keep hold of. But never believe we can send another to hell or to heaven because that is just Papist.
john.

OK! Know I see where you got the idea of sending people to hell.
It is the way you are looking at the meaning of the forgiveness in relation to how you are viewing sin.
(Please Please Re-Read some of the things I have posted for intellectual sake alone. As I have posted before, we cannot understand another persons point of view if we can't see it from their perspective. IE: Why some cannot see the deity of Jesus, Why the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for today and etc. I understand how they arrived at the place they are, but don't agree with them.)

You are trying to understand my perspective of sin from your view point or doctrinal stance. You are disagreeing with me because you have arrived at a view point from your perspective and assuming that this is what I believe and its far from my contentions and beliefs.
You perceive all sin is the same and can only be forgiven by God and any unforgiven sin leads to Hell. So the Apostles cannot be forgiving sin (remitting) and not forgiving sin (retaining) and sending people to Hell.
Am I correct in my understanding of your view of this?

If I am, you are not understanding what I am saying.
There are sins that affect us physically on this earth and these were the sins Jesus was dealing with when healing people.
These sins are the sins which the Apostles were also remitting and retaining. They were following in the ministry of Jesus by healing the sick by imitating Jesus through the forgiveness of these fleshly sins.
The Apostles were not forgiving the sin (Rebellion) which leads to Hell.
I always had a hard time understanding that verse until I saw sin in this manner of physical and spiritual.

Thank you for asking! I'll post some pictures.
The beach is nice and it was really hot also 90F.
Today has a nice breeze of the ocean.

Russell · #**138** 07.04.2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny

The Israelite Day of atonement was given to the nation of Israel and it was meant as a shadow of the sacrifice of Christ. One did not need to be in Jerusalem or even in Israel to benefit from it. But it was only for Israel, no other nation benefited from it or the sacrifice of Christ.
Rom 9:6 It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."[c]

The same thing Israel foreshadowed is the reality now for the chosen. Christians are the true Israel and the atonement was given just for us.

Those of promise are by faith (Abraham who was not a Jew).
The physical promise of Deliverance from this evil age is by faith.
Forgiveness of sin is a free gift.
Paul's states there is no more Jew and Gentile but one.

(Col 3:11 [KJV])

Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond

[nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all.

As far as atonement. It is given to the whole world and not just the church, according to Paul. (Not ME!)
(Rom 5:18 [KJV])

Therefore as by the offence of one

[judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

(Rom 5:19 [KJV])
For as by one man's disobedience many (All) were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many (All) be made righteous.

Your doctrinal positions will not allow you to see the scripture as it is written. You are confronted with these verses, you must explain away by changing their meaning or ignoring them in order to fit into your context of belief.
Once again, to change the meaning is adding to or taking from the very Word of God. In the book of Revelation they are cursed for this. Please keep this in mind when dealing with the scripture.
This is not a chess game of trying to out wit the other person but a pursuit of the truth of God. It is OK to test ones scriptural ideas by seeing how well they hold up under scrutiny and I Welcome that. So test me all you want. But! But be intellectually honest as well and realize when your own doctrines falter or crash and burn. On the other hand if you have a point "I Will Admit It" I am not afraid to loose a debate. My world does not come to a halt when something I have believed for years crashes and it has happened many times to my dismay.

Carico · #**139** 07.09.2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russell

Is the gospel of "I'm saved and your not", a exclusive country club idea? I'm special because I belong to the "I'm saved club" and you need to join or your going to hell. Is this the teaching which Jesus taught the people. Is this the Gospel which Jesus preached?

If you think this is going to be the same old rehash "SURPRISE" its not.

Only in your dreams. That's the new gospel that people themselves have written so it's a false teaching. It's like criminals who run from the law all their lives and only want a pardon when they're caught and it's time to pay the price.

But God isn't the fool they hope He is. Jesus said that FEW will find the narrow road. So if you're jealous of those who do, then you need to listen to Jesus to find out how you can enter his club. Otherwise, I'm afraid you're up a creek without a paddle on judgment day.

Russell · #**140** 07.09.2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carico

Only in your dreams. That's the new gospel that people themselves have written so it's a false teaching.

So the Gospel Jesus preached is a false Gospel according to you! You are not His sheep, His sheep hear and obey His words.
The "New Gospel" is anything which Jesus did not preach, period. Jesus is the standard by which we know we are teaching the proper doctrine.
If you are not preaching the exact words of Jesus you are not preaching the real Gospel. You are preaching the "New Gospel" if your words don't match His.
Many arrogant people think that Jesus did not preach the Gospel because it does not match what they believe. So they have a Messiah who doesn't know nor understand the Gospel according to them. They ignore what ever He taught and say it is not for today. So they have a messiah who doesn't preach the same Gospel as they do and IGNORE what He did preach. Are you IGNORING what He preached? Do you teach and preach what He taught and preached or something else???
How terribly unexplainably bizarre is that? You have a Messiah and you ignore and CHANGE HIS WORDS. (Not very devoted are you)
Only true Christians follow and believe every Word Jesus spoke. True Christians do not change the Gospel of their Messiah or try to explain them away.

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