The power of prayer and the death of Kara Neumann

[the_Student]

Originally Posted by Bad Rabbit

Ah, yes.

Death is life and black is white.
War is peace and Big Brother Yahweh loves us by killing us, slowly and painfully through the agency of retarded parents.

Makes perfect sense to me.

Bad Rabbit

Let's make your answer clear...

Do you think it is a form of saving from God or not? just answer YES if you agree and NO if not?

Simple eh? even a grade one student can answer that? and you're...
how old are you again?

[jonnycool]

Speedy.

Have you ever said the above words to any fellow Christian who has declared in a stentorian voice that "God is good"?

Don't know any who talk like that and I would never attend a Church where Stentor is advocated. The word of God needs no help.

My parents used to say "do as I say, not as I do", but they were just being facetious.

If we think we can compare ourselves to God, for instance: If He can smite so can I.
Then we are treating God with contempt and we try to become like God.
Your parents aren't God and on occassion they may have been facetious, but there's no point in having kids if one can't be facetious with them. There's got to be some good in having kids.

CANNOT? This may be seen as an admission on your part that God is not omnipotent.

If God could become less than God in denying Himself then it would be an addmission of weakness. As it is, God cannot be weak in denying Himself and if you think that proves He is weak that's your problem.

God is just, because He says so? That's circular reasoning, jonny.

I couldn't care what shape it is if God says so God says so.
But I think you missed my point, I wasn't saying God is just because God says He is, even though that's good enough for me. What I was pointing out that God says He is just and this justice means He can chose who goes to hell and who goes to heaven and He creates those for those particular assignments.
We would say that is not just as we never stood a chance. That according to us is not just but God said to Moses that He considers it just and we were to shut up and not talk back. I don't, you do. I fully accept God's judgment on the subject. It's not as if we can do anything about it is it? We can't appeal to the Human Rights Court or anything.

He will do as He pleases and if He says it's right it's right. End of story man.

Tell that to Achan's children (Joshua chapter 7).

You should see what He did to Esau's children. He defines just and unjust not you or me or any man alive or dead. You should get it into your head that we are not dealing with a democrate we are dealing with The Despot and the sooner you realise that the less aggression will come from you.

It's not as if you believe in God therefore it's men, of whom you are a part, you should be accusing of these crimes.

"Uh...Pharoah...I've got some bad news for ya. I've decided to harden your heart, so that you won't let the Israelites go, and then I'm going to punish you and all of Egypt for it in multiple grotesque ways. I'll even kill your son because I hardened your heart! Then, after you "taste death", I'll be sending you to an eternity of fiery torture in hell. Sucks to be you! Have a nice day."

Seeing as you put it like that then I'd have to agree with you. I'd dispense with, 'have a nice day' though. Otherwise, you are dead right.

john.

[Speedracer]

Originally Posted by jonnycool

Don't know any who talk like that and I would never attend a Church where Stentor is advocated. The word of God needs no help.

Good to know, but that doesn't answer my question. I'll ask you again.....when one of your fellow Christians says "God is good", do you inform them that "You are using your own judgment of justice on what is right and wrong and you are trying to impose that on God" as quickly as you informed ME of this?

If we think we can compare ourselves to God, for instance: If He can smite so can I.
Then we are treating God with contempt and we try to become like God.

We? I will assume that you are not including me in this "we", but are speaking of someone else.....since your entire statement here is based upon the presupposition that we believe he exists in the first place.

If God could become less than God in denying Himself then it would be an addmission of weakness. As it is, God cannot be weak in denying Himself and if you think that proves He is weak that's your problem.

Omnipotent:
–adjective 1.almighty or infinite in power, as God.
2.having very great or unlimited authority or power.

Anyone who is supposed to be almighty or infinite in power, who CANNOT do something, is not almighty or infinite in power. Now, if he can, but simply chooses not to, then that's a different story, now isn't it?

I wasn't saying God is just because God says He is, even though that's good enough for me.

Good enough for you, eh? I'm afraid I have drastically underestimated just how easy to please you really are.

God said to Moses that He considers it just and we were to shut up and not talk back.

Might makes right. Got it.

It's not as if we can do anything about it is it? We can't appeal to the Human Rights Court or anything.

Sure we can. Why, I just appealed to the Human Rights Court the other day, regarding the shenanigans of that witch from the Chronicles of Narnia. They informed me that they would promptly send her a strongly worded letter, admonishing her to clean up her act.

You should see what He did to Esau's children. He defines just and unjust not you or me or any man alive or dead. You should get it into your head that we are not dealing with a democrate we are dealing with The Despot and the sooner you realise that the less aggression will come from you.

I read this as "You think he's bad? He's even worse than you think! You don't even know! But he's just, because might makes right. So shut up and don't make waves."

It's not as if you believe in God therefore it's men, of whom you are a part, you should be accusing of these crimes.

Exactly. Any man who commits a crime (whether he claims divine mandate or not), must be held solely accountable for that crime.....Oh, you must be specifically referring to the crimes in the Bible, right? Okay, fair enough. If Joshua and his army really existed, and this was an actual historical account, then Joshua and his men should be solely accountable for unjustly stoning Achan's family to death, whether they claimed that "God made me do it" or not.

[jonnycool]

Good to know, but that doesn't answer my question. I'll ask you again.....when one of your fellow Christians says "God is good", do you inform them that "You are using your own judgment of justice on what is right and wrong and you are trying to impose that on God" as quickly as you informed ME of this?

It's a very difficult question to answer in full. I keep ending up writing my life history for some reason.
In short, yes, I tell people what I believe whilst backing it up with scripture. More often than not I get their opinion.

I watched a play on Sky Arts a couple of months ago. It concerned a concentration camp and the Jews held there.
They put God on trial for breaking His covenant with them. (They found Him guilty by the way).
The thing that got my attention was that one of the chaps made the remark that God was good because He was on the Jews side.

PS 73:1 Surely God is good to Israel, to those who are pure in heart.

Maybe someone else can come up with scripture that says God is good but this is the only mention of it in the NIV.

Before Esau was born and before his deeds were taken into account God said, "I hate him." Surely God was not good to Esau, nor was He good to Esau's people.

MAL 1:4 Edom may say, "Though we have been crushed, we will rebuild the ruins."
But this is what the LORD Almighty says: "They may build, but I will demolish. They will be called the Wicked Land, a people always under the wrath of the LORD. 5 You will see it with your own eyes and say, `Great is the LORD--even beyond the borders of Israel!'

It ain't by any stretch of the imagination that that can be described as good except, it was good in God's eyes to do such a thing.

So, yes, I would tell anyone, who wants to hear, that they impose onto God their own traditions, Pharisees.

It's a similar thing in Genesis. God said, "It is good." And everyone thinks that it was perfect, in a nice sweet way, but it wasn't. There was a 'not good' in the garden that everyone seems to ignore.

GE 2:18 The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."

I believe that when God said it was good He meant that it was fit for the purpose that it was created for and that purpose was that Christ would die.

How's that?

If we think we can compare ourselves to God, for instance: If He can smite so can I.
Then we are treating God with contempt and we try to become like God.

We? I will assume that you are not including me in this "we", but are speaking of someone else.....since your entire statement here is based upon the presupposition that we believe he exists in the first place.

Did you not say, "Do as I tell you not as I do." ? You said that was, to my mind, hypocritical. Since that is what God says then I thought you were making a general statement that such a thing is hypocritical not that you were suddenly a believer. If you don't believe He exists in the first place then why kick against it?

Omnipotent:
–adjective 1.almighty or infinite in power, as God.
2.having very great or unlimited authority or power.
Anyone who is supposed to be almighty or infinite in power, who CANNOT do something, is not almighty or infinite in power. Now, if he can, but simply chooses not to, then that's a different story, now isn't it?

God cannot be hit on the nose and knocked out. Why do you think that proves He's not all powerful? God cannot prove He is Sovereign by allowing others to make choices. By allowing others to make choices He becomes 'not' Sovereign and 'not' all powerful. Your argument fails.

I wasn't saying God is just because God says He is, even though that's good enough for me.

Good enough for you, eh? I'm afraid I have drastically underestimated just how easy to please you really are.

If God says it is so it is so, as far as I'm concerned that's the be all and end all of all things.
But, God cannot be unjust unless He makes a law where He says if He does a certain act then that would make Him a law-breaker. Do you understand that? Your morals are based on Christian pressuppositions because without God there are no morals because there is no law.
If God makes no law concerning Himself then He cannot break any law, He's a law unto Himself. Since He made laws for us, those laws do reside in you, and those laws keep expressing themselves from you, such as justice, then we are law-breakers if we don't do what He tells us to do regardless of what He does or don't do. (Does that make sense?). You can't express morals unless morals are God given. Where does your sense of justice come from, evolution? Is there something intrinsically survivalist about helping your neighbour?

There are no morals if there is no God. Where is your sense of justice coming from Speedy, is it an evolutionally trait?

Might makes right. Got it.

It does don't it? I mean we hung those Nazi's that murdered those people but our bomber crews did us proud. But I think you don't really comprehend Who you are dealing with. I know I don't. He is awesome.

It's not as if I wasn't like you once. I didn't want to know either but God change my mind and my heart. I didn't want to be a Christian, God forbid, I was into my drugs and beer and wild, wild women man.

Why does one man believe one thing and another believes the opposite? What makes us different from one another? Does one have a leaning to religion and another to a couldn't care less? Where's choice come in?

Why do you believe you're right and know for certain I am wrong when I know better? Think man. Why do you think like you think, is it because your more clever? Where's choice then?

[b]It's not as if we can do anything about it is it? We can't appeal to the Human Rights Court or anything.[/quote]

Sure we can. Why, I just appealed to the Human Rights Court the other day, regarding the shenanigans of that witch from the Chronicles of Narnia. They informed me that they would promptly send her a strongly worded letter, admonishing her to clean up her act.

So, we have a man here who has a bright idea. He thinks, "I'll write a story based on Christianity to make it more accessible to people." And then he proceeds to fill a book with goblins, elves witches and lions and believes he is doing something brilliant whereas, in fact, he has perverted the gospel of Christ and many Christians now believe in the perversion rather than scripture. haha! And atheists like you think it scores a point or two. haha! (I think I've run out of smilies).

I read this as "You think he's bad? He's even worse than you think! You don't even know! But he's just, because might makes right. So shut up and don't make waves."

Cool man, you got the gist.

Exactly. Any man who commits a crime (whether he claims divine mandate or not), must be held solely accountable for that crime.....Oh, you must be specifically referring to the crimes in the Bible, right? Okay, fair enough. If Joshua and his army really existed, and this was an actual historical account, then Joshua and his men should be solely accountable for unjustly stoning Achan's family to death, whether they claimed that "God made me do it" or not.

No, God directed them. But if you believe it was just men then I'll tell you it is still the same today. If a man is arrested or convicted of something horrible his whole family get it in the neck. You do nothing to support the human race with your attacks against God but you say you're better than most.

Today people use the Mental Heath Act.

john.

[Speedracer]

You've given me quite a lot to tackle here, jonny. Here we go.....

They put God on trial.....(They found Him guilty by the way).

LOL!!! What's next on the docket? Will they put Lex Luthor on trial for the attempted murder of Superman?

Did you not say, "Do as I tell you not as I do." ? You said that was, to my mind, hypocritical. Since that is what God says then I thought you were making a general statement that such a thing is hypocritical not that you were suddenly a believer. If you don't believe He exists in the first place then why kick against it?

Your thought was correct, jonny. I was making a general statement that such a thing is hypocritical. Critiquing the God character in the story book as hypocritical does not mean that I suddenly believe he exists. I can also call Lex Luthor a "bad guy", and Superman a "good guy", without necessarily believing that THEY exist either. Also, a belief in God is not required in order to "kick against" hypocrisy.

God cannot be hit on the nose and knocked out. Why do you think that proves He's not all powerful? God cannot prove He is Sovereign by allowing others to make choices. By allowing others to make choices He becomes 'not' Sovereign and 'not' all powerful. Your argument fails.

This reminds me of the question "can an omnipotent God create a rock that even he cannot lift?" If he can create that rock, then he indeed cannot lift it, and is therefore not omnipotent. If he cannot create that rock, then his inability to do so also negates his omnipotency. In this particular case, the question is "can a sovereign, all-powerful God allow others to make choices?" If he can allow them to make choices, then this negates his sovereignty and all-encompassing power. If he cannot, then he is, of course, NOT all-powerful. I don't know why you would think that my argument fails, when you just helped me to make that argument.....God is not all-powerful. Omnipotency is logically impossible.

Your morals are based on Christian pressuppositions because without God there are no morals because there is no law.....You can't express morals unless morals are God given.....There are no morals if there is no God.

A lack of belief in any or all of 2,850 deities does not automatically make one a moral relativist. I think that there are objective sources of moral order that do not require the existence of a god, much less YOUR particular god. Personally, I echo the sentiments of Sam Harris in his book "The End of Faith", when he says that questions of morality are really questions about happiness and suffering. "Moral truths" come down to objectively better or worse ways to live so as to maximize happiness and minimize suffering in this world. We could start a whole new thread about this, and debate it at great length.....but all I'm really trying to say here is that morality itself in general, and my "sense of justice" in particular, is not automatically a big bright neon sign pointing straight to Yahweh.

It's not as if I wasn't like you once. I didn't want to know either but God change my mind and my heart. I didn't want to be a Christian, God forbid, I was into my drugs and beer and wild, wild women man.

And I don't want to be a Christian; God forbid; I am into logic and reason and wild, wild intellectual honesty, man!

So, we have a man here who has a bright idea. He thinks, "I'll write a story based on Christianity to make it more accessible to people." And then he proceeds to fill a book with goblins, elves witches and lions and believes he is doing something brilliant whereas, in fact, he has perverted the gospel of Christ and many Christians now believe in the perversion rather than scripture. haha! And atheists like you think it scores a point or two. haha! (I think I've run out of smilies).

Yeah, jonny; I think it scores "points" for atheists that Christians believe in a perversion of the Jesus story rather than the original (Speed rolling eyes and whistling softly). You have quite a creative imagination, jonny. Sorry to burst your bubble, but I was merely pointing out that criticizing God as a character in a book was no different than criticizing any other fictional character, such as the witch from Narnia, Lex Luthor, or the Riddler (from Batman). My selection of the Narnia books as an example was coincidental; don't read too much into it. I'll assume that you haven't, based on the "haha!".

No, God directed them. But if you believe it was just men then I'll tell you it is still the same today. If a man is arrested or convicted of something horrible his whole family get it in the neck.

It is NOT the same today, and you know it. If a man is convicted of murder, the judge does NOT sentence the man's children to pop a squat on Old Sparky along with their dad. The "getting it in the neck" that you speak of, is metaphorical. I'm dealing with the literal here. I agree that the family suffers as a result of dad's arrest and conviction, but their suffering is a natural consequence, NOT a directly ordered punishment for dad's crime.

You do nothing to support the human race with your attacks against God but you say you're better than most.

There you go again with the "attacks against God" rhetoric. But I agree; my literary criticism of the God character from our favorite story book, does nothing specific to "support the human race". And WHERE exactly have you heard me say that I am better than most? I don't recall being so condescending. I'll tell you this much though.....I think that the vast majority of us on planet earth, myself included, are "better" than the extremely small percentage of us who murder, rape, steal.....and listen to country music.

[jonnycool]

Funny thing about man, they seem to forget where they come from.


They put God on trial for breaking the covenant He had made with them.

The covenant He made with them was broken by them exiles, from Egypt, but two, died before they entered the Promised Land.

And I don't want to be a Christian; God forbid; I am into logic and reason and wild, wild intellectual honesty, man!

God forbid that I should become a Christian was a mantra of mine as well. Funny old life ain't it? ISA 65:1 "I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me;
I was found by those who did not seek me.
To a nation that did not call on my name,
I said, `Here am I, here am I.'

Pattie Smith sung a song and a line in it went: Jesus died for somebody's sins but not mine.

She cannot know.

I've got to get to sleep. I left this post till last thinking I'd spend some time on it but time has ran out.

I don't recall being so condescending. I'll tell you this much though.....I think that the vast majority of us on planet earth, myself included, are "better" than the extremely small percentage of us who murder, rape, steal.....and listen to country music.

You see? You do say your better than others so it's not condecending is it?

This is what scripture says: 1 Cor 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am...

It's entered into the English language, 'there but for the grace of God go I'. You are what you are because God made you so.
Thank God for what you are. Lex lurks around the corner. God can give you over.

See yer tomorrow?

john.

[Speedracer]

Originally Posted by jonnycool

Funny thing about man, they seem to forget where they come from.

Funny thing about the intellectually honest; they seem to admit that they honestly don't know where they came from.

God forbid that I should become a Christian was a mantra of mine as well. Funny old life ain't it? ISA 65:1 "I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me;
I was found by those who did not seek me.
To a nation that did not call on my name,
I said, `Here am I, here am I.'

I was being facetious and turning your own words around on you again (I seem to be doing that a lot), with the "God forbid" remark. It's not like deep down I really do believe, but am just being obstinate. I simply am not a Christian for the same reason that I am not a Hindu (Vishnu forbid!), or a Zoroastrian (Ahura-Mazda forbid!). I simply have found no uniquely validating evidence for Yahweh, that cannot ALSO be claimed by any of the thousands of other gods that mankind has invented.

As for your quote from that Isaiah fellow.....time will tell if his god of choice will decide to reveal himself to me in some way. If he does, and he clearly identifies himself as Yahweh, and clearly tells me that he has a son named Jesus who is the only way to salvation.....then I'll gladly hop on the Christian bandwagon. Otherwise, I have to be honest with myself, and cannot just pretend to know something that I honestly don't know, or believe something for which I have no proof.

(regarding my comment about being better than murderers, rapists, etc.)
You see? You do say your better than others so it's not condecending is it?

I suppose that, technically, it is always "condescending" to claim to be better than ANYONE. Of course, there is a huge difference between claiming to be better than those who murder, rape, molest children, etc.....and claiming to be "better than most", as you accused me of. And BTW, claiming to be better than those who listen to country music, while still a bit condescending, is simply a statement of FACT on my part (nudge nudge, wink wink).

This is what scripture says: 1 Cor 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am...

I'm aware of what Paul said to the people of Corinth. Now THIS is what Popeye the sailor man says: "I yam what I yam what I yam, and I yam what I yam, and that's all that I yam, 'cause I yam what I yam".

You are what you are because God made you so.
Thank God for what you are.

If I ever get to where I can (with my intellectual integrity fully intact) know that for a fact, then I will be sure to thank him. Otherwise, in the absense of any real proof, please forgive me if I don't find your simply stating it as a fact particularly compelling.

Lex lurks around the corner. God can give you over.

I had a sneaking suspicion that God was in cahoots with Lex! Luckily, I can put my trust in Superman to save me.

[jonnycool]

Speedy.

Funny thing about the intellectually honest; they seem to admit that they honestly don't know where they came from.

But that is a lie isn't it? You say you don't believe in God so if you were honest you might say that God is a possibility if you admit to not knowing?

As for your quote from that Isaiah fellow.....time will tell if his god of choice will decide to reveal himself to me in some way. If he does, and he clearly identifies himself as Yahweh, and clearly tells me that he has a son named Jesus who is the only way to salvation.....then I'll gladly hop on the Christian bandwagon. Otherwise, I have to be honest with myself, and cannot just pretend to know something that I honestly don't know, or believe something for which I have no proof.

You won't glady hop onto the Christian band-wagon you will have no choice. But, essentially, and with a quibble, stay as you are. The quibble being, you reject God but say you do not know where you came from. That is not intellectual honesty that is sin in you.

I suppose that, technically, it is always "condescending" to claim to be better than ANYONE. Of course, there is a huge difference between claiming to be better than those who murder, rape, molest children, etc.....and claiming to be "better than most", as you accused me of. And BTW, claiming to be better than those who listen to country music, while still a bit condescending, is simply a statement of FACT on my part (nudge nudge, wink wink).

Who made you better than anyone else? Why are you different from the next man. Did you choose what you believe in a vacuum? Doesn't you life experiences affect you and cause you to make the choices you make? Did you choose your life experiences?

You're close to Texas ain't you? How come you don't think much of the red-necks? Don't you dare bring Dolly into this.

I'm aware of what Paul said to the people of Corinth. Now THIS is what Popeye the sailor man says: "I yam what I yam what I yam, and I yam what I yam, and that's all that I yam, 'cause I yam what I yam".

You sure? I thought he said, "I is what I is."

If I ever get to where I can (with my intellectual integrity fully intact)...

Yes, but it's not intact is it? You say you don't know but you dismiss God. How can you hold both tenents and remain intellectually honest?

If I ever get to where I can (with my intellectual integrity fully intact) know that for a fact, then I will be sure to thank him. Otherwise, in the absense of any real proof, please forgive me if I don't find your simply stating it as a fact particularly compelling.

I don't know how to believe in a thing I don't believe in, believe me. Stay as you are until convinced.
I hate those who don't believe but say they do, believe me.

I'd rather spend my time withb confessed atheists than spend anytime with those who say they do but they don't.

I'll end it here. Lex was only doing what God caused him to do but relly, why don't we rid ourselves of such people. He would have got five years if he went to the Human Rights Court.

john

[Speedracer]

Originally Posted by jonnycool

You say you don't believe in God so if you were honest you might say that God is a possibility if you admit to not knowing?

When did I ever say that God was NOT a possibility? I currently don't believe in your God for the exact same reason that I currently don't believe in Allah, Vishnu, Ahura-Mazda, Zeus, Odin, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Big Foot, or Lucky the Leprechaun. I see pretty much the same amount of evidence for all of the aforementioned. If YOU were honest you might say that Vishnu or Big Foot is a possibility if you were to admit to not knowing?

...you reject God but say you do not know where you came from. That is not intellectual honesty that is sin in you.

If you reject Brahma, and claim to know where you came from (and that a billion Hindus out there are all dead wrong), then that would not be intellectual honesty; that would be arrogant religious certainty in you.

Who made you better than anyone else? Why are you different from the next man. Did you choose what you believe in a vacuum? Doesn't you life experiences affect you and cause you to make the choices you make? Did you choose your life experiences?

Well played, jonny. Nicely done. You're right; none of us can claim to be "better" than anyone else without being condescending in the process. So I officially retract my previous remark about being better than murderers, rapists, molesters, and country music fans. Just one last thought on this though: a lot of people grew up with very similar life experiences, financial circumstances, and screwed-up childhood memories, as Ted Bundy.....but they didn't all become murderers. Ultimately, Ted made the decision to murder, and the others made the decision not to murder. Still, I'll concede that it would be condescending, even for them, to claim to be better than Ted Bundy.

You're close to Texas ain't you? How come you don't think much of the red-necks? Don't you dare bring Dolly into this.

Who said anything about the red-necks? I just don't think much of country music. "Country music fans" and "red-necks" are not interchangable terms, my friend, and I already retracted my statement about being better than any of the above. Also, I have no beef with Dolly (she was great in that "9 to 5" movie); I just quickly change the station if I hear her country music, or anyone else's for that matter, on the radio.

You say you don't know but you dismiss God. How can you hold both tenents and remain intellectually honest?

Using your logic, how then can one say that they don't know how to explain those strange-looking paw prints in the woods, but dismiss the possibility of Big Foot?.....How can one say that they don't know who stole their Big Mac when they were in the bathroom, but dismiss the possibility that it was the Hamburglar?.....How can one say that they don't know how to explain the disappearance of hundreds of thousands of missing children, but dismiss the possibility that it was the Boogeyman? Real intellectual honesty would be to say that one is an agnostic regarding Big Foot, the Hamburglar, and the Boogeyman.....right? I'm just opining that one doesn't necessarily have to have all the answers, in order to find your proposed "answer" ridiculous.

I don't know how to believe in a thing I don't believe in, believe me. Stay as you are until convinced.

Staying as I am until convinced is all that I can honestly do, my friend. And that's all that you can honestly do as well. And while I don't believe in belief, I believe that you cannot believe in something you don't believe in, believe me. And I believe I'll have another beer.

I hate those who don't believe but say they do, believe me.

Now jonny, let's not be hatin', bro! But I know what you mean regarding insincere, disingenuous phonies. I don't think much of them either.

... Lex was only doing what God caused him to do...

Wow. Now you're taking it up a notch, aren't you? Taking it to the next level! God doesn't just cause all of US to do what we do; apparently, he has all-encompassing power over the decisions of comic book characters as well! Cheerio for now, jonny...

[richardP]

Originally Posted by JWayne

God's will happening as He wishes it to happen.

What's that supposed to mean?