The power of prayer and the death of Kara Neumann

[Bad Rabbit]

By DIRK JOHNSON New York Times
Published: January 20, 2009
WESTON, Wis. — Kara Neumann, 11, had grown so weak that she could not walk or speak. Her parents, who believe that God alone has the ability to heal the sick, prayed for her recovery but did not take her to a doctor.

After an aunt from California called the sheriff’s department here, frantically pleading that the sick child be rescued, an ambulance arrived at the Neumann’s rural home on the outskirts of Wausau and rushed Kara to the hospital. She was pronounced dead on arrival.

The county coroner ruled that she had died from diabetic ketoacidosis resulting from undiagnosed and untreated juvenile diabetes. The condition occurs when the body fails to produce insulin, which leads to severe dehydration and impairment of muscle, lung and heart function.

“Basically everything stops,” said Dr. Louis Philipson, who directs the diabetes center at the University of Chicago Medical Center, explaining what occurs in patients who do not know or “are in denial that they have diabetes.”

About a month after Kara’s death last March, the Marathon County state attorney, Jill Falstad, brought charges of reckless endangerment against her parents, Dale and Leilani Neumann. Despite the Neumanns’ claim that the charges violated their constitutional right to religious freedom, Judge Vincent Howard of Marathon County Circuit Court ordered Ms. Neumann to stand trial on May 14, and Mr. Neumann on June 23. If convicted, each faces up to 25 years in prison.

“The free exercise clause of the First Amendment protects religious belief,” the judge wrote in his ruling, “but not necessarily conduct.”

Wisconsin law, he noted, exempts a parent or guardian who treats a child with only prayer from being criminally charged with neglecting child welfare laws, but only “as long as a condition is not life threatening.” Kara’s parents, Judge Howard wrote, “were very well aware of her deteriorating medical condition.”

About 300 children have died in the United States in the last 25 years after medical care was withheld on religious grounds, said Rita Swan, executive director of Children’s Health Care Is a Legal Duty, a group based in Iowa that advocates punishment for parents who do not seek medical help when their children need it. Criminal codes in 30 states, including Wisconsin, provide some form of protection for practitioners of faith healing in cases of child neglect and other matters, protection that Ms. Swan’s group opposes.

Shawn Peters, the author of three books on religion and the law, including “When Prayer Fails: Faith Healing, Children and the Law” (Oxford, 2007), said the outcome of the Neumann case was likely to set an important precedent.

“The laws around the country are pretty unsettled,” said Mr. Peters, who teaches religion at the University of Wisconsin Oshkosh and has been consulted by prosecutors and defense lawyers in the case.

In the last year, two other sets of parents, both in Oregon, were criminally charged because they had not sought medical care for their children on the ground that to do so would have violated their belief in faith healing. One couple were charged with manslaughter in the death of their 15-month-old daughter, who died of pneumonia last March. The other couple were charged with criminally negligent homicide in the death of their 16-year-old son, who died from complications of a urinary tract infection that was severely painful and easily treatable.

“Many types of abuses of children are motivated by rigid belief systems,” including severe corporal punishment, said Ms. Swan, a former Christian Scientist whose 16-month-old son, Matthew, died after she postponed taking him to a hospital for treatment of what proved to be meningitis. “We learned the hard way.”

All states give social service authorities the right to go into homes and petition for the removal of children, Ms. Swan said, but cases involving medical care often go unnoticed until too late. Parents who believe in faith healing, she said, may feel threatened by religious authorities who oppose medical treatment. Recalling her own experience, she said, “we knew that once we went to the doctor, we’d be cut off from God.”

The crux of the Neumanns’ case, Mr. Peters said, will be whether the parents could have known the seriousness of their daughter’s condition.

Investigators said the Neumanns last took Kara to a doctor when she was 3. According to a police report, the girl had lost the strength to speak the day before she died. “Kara laid down and was unable to move her mouth,” the report said, “and merely made moaning noises and moved her eyes back and forth.”

The courts have ordered regular medical checks for the couple’s other three children, ages 13 to 16, and Judge Howard ordered all the parties in the case not to speak to members of the news media. Neither Ms. Falstad nor the defense lawyers, Gene Linehan and Jay Kronenwetter, would agree to be interviewed.

The Neumanns, who had operated a coffee shop, Monkey Mo’s, in this middle-class suburb in the North Woods, are known locally as followers of an online faith outreach group called Unleavened Bread Ministries, run by a preacher, David Eells. The site shares stories of faith healing and talks about the end of the world.

An essay on the site signed Pastor Bob states that the Bible calls for healing by faith alone. “Jesus never sent anyone to a doctor or a hospital,” the essay says. “Jesus offered healing by one means only! Healing was by faith.”

A link from the site, helptheneumanns.com, asserts that the couple is being persecuted and “charged with the crime of praying.” The site also allows people to contribute to a legal fund for the Neumanns.

In the small town of Weston, many people shake their heads with dismay when Kara Neumann is mentioned. Tammy Klemp, 41, who works behind the counter at a convenience store here, said she disagreed with the Neumanns’ passive response to their daughter’s illness but said she was not sure they should go to prison.

“I’ve got mixed feelings,” Ms. Klemp said. “It’s just such a terribly sad case.”

Chris Goebel, 30, a shipping department worker for a window maker, said many people in the area felt strongly that the parents should be punished.

“That little girl wasn’t old enough to make the decision about going to a doctor,” Mr. Goebel said. “And now, because some religious extremists went too far, she’s gone.”

[the fruit]

Oh my goodness he found one story of some nut cases who would not take their child to the hospital...

But i googled and founds more death in the hospital malpractice cases than one could reasonable bring to a discussion...

So one not in the hospital dying compared to many in the hospital dying by malpractice...

[the fruit]

Originally Posted by Bad Rabbit

I don't think these people are crazy. They are true believers and their faith is certainly stronger than yours. After all, Jebus did heal the sick. It says so in the bible.
One wonders why He couldn't be bothered to heal this 11-year old girl.
Ah yes, His ways are mysterious.....and capricious and cruel.


Or, the other theory is true. The one that says that prayer is nothing else than the sound of ignorant people talking to themselves.



Nice red herring.

You obviously do not even know what a red herring is...sheesh. to bad you have to show us all that is the case. Plus you have yet to prove anything about their beliefs as related to Jesus so you point is trite and pointless. please try to at least carry on a conversation with some semblance of reason. You would have to make the case that they did believe in Jesus, did practice a biblical order, did in fact have faith biblical, which you or the article did not do...your post is built on your own ignorance(which is great)

are you saying children do not die of malpractice? Sounds like some stupidity you'd spew out your hole...

[jonnycool]

Ah yes, His ways are mysterious.....and capricious and cruel.

If you really believed Jebus is like that, Rabbit, then your response is just a mindless rebellion. Bow the knee to the One who can make you suffer forever in hell man.

...you have yet to prove anything about their beliefs as related to Jesus so your point is trite and pointless. please try to at least carry on a conversation with some semblance of reason. You would have to make the case that they did believe in Jesus, did practice a biblical order, did in fact have faith biblical, which you or the article did not do... (fruit)

Luke was a doctor and Paul dispensed medicine: 1TI 5:23 Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.

john.

[richardP]

The Saint and the Flood...
Flood waters were coming and despite warnings from the authorities the Saint stayed in his home. "God will save me," he told them.

Well, the water poured in and it rose above the level of his house. The Saint was forced to climb onto his roof. The Sheriff came by in a rescue boat and offered a ride to safety. "No thank you. God will save me," he told them.

The power of the flood washed the Saints' home away and he struggled to swim in the raging water. Quite soon a helicopter came by and dropped a line and an offer of a flight to safety. "No thank you. God will save me," he told them.

The Saint drowned and when he arrived in heaven he asked God why he let him die.

Almighty God does not have to answer to anyone, but in His kindness He did.
"I sent the authorities to warn you that the flood was coming. I sent a boat and I sent a helicopter to save you. What more do you want from me?"

The unsaved do not have a monopoly on foolishness.
Neither is Jesus cruel and hateful just because some of His children are idiots.

[JWayne]

God's will happening as He wishes it to happen.

[jonnycool]

Just out of curiosity, all those elderly people who drowned in their attics while Katrina laid waste to their Crescent City (while they were praying to Jebus)- why did your petulant desert deity ignore their pleas?

It's God who gives and it's God who takes away Rabbit. Whether they were praying to jebus or not no one could say could they, not me and not you?

Before we (that is humans) eradicated smallpox in 1979 this little present from Yahweh killed millions of people (mostly children) each year.

God gave us that cure but He has many ways to take away without Smallpox.

Care to inform us ( since you seem to know the mind of the creator of the universe intimately) why your celestial dictator presided over this unspeakable amount of misery with folded arms?

He will inform you Himself:
DA 4:35 All the peoples of the earth
are regarded as nothing.
He does as he pleases
with the powers of heaven
and the peoples of the earth.
No one can hold back his hand
or say to him: "What have you done?"

Ah, yes. I get it. He doesn't have to answer to us.

Were you ever advised not to play with fire?

Do I need to spell out what I think of your grotesquely immoral world-view and your mind shatteringly vulgar and shallow psilosophy ?
Or do you get the message ?

Strange that an evo would think he has a right to judge morals. Where do you think you are? Morals are there because God said so not because of your inflated ego.
You have no basis to believe you have any morals. Survival of the fittest isn't it? You take what is good from God and you think you can use it against God? haha!

...your celestial dictator...

To the elect He is Father Despot but to your kind He is just Despot.

john.

[jonnycool]

Well, I got you to admit it, finally.

You never got to make me admit anything for this is my faith and I do not fall short of admitting to my faith. You have just met a child of God who knows what he is talking about.

God is a bully and you are just fine with that.

Yes. Are you not? What do you want to have, muscle over your God or do I want my God to have muscle? This is the simple choice of all men. God is Boss or we are?

You even seem to enjoy this predicament you imagine yourself to be in.

predicament:
a situation from which extrication is difficult especially an unpleasant or trying one; "finds himself in a most awkward predicament"; "the woeful ...
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en...ition&ct=title

Is that what you mean? If so, I'm in no predicament. My God got you to say your words. PR 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

You know, JC, there is a phrase for that mentality.
Some call it a pathology and others, like me, just find it repulsive.

pathology: any deviation from a healthy or normal condition
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en...nG=Search&meta=
I don't blame you, I would have at one time.

My faith is this: God, before He created anything, chose to save some and send the rest to hell, for His glory.
He did not base His choice on what we do and He made sure that what we do, in our natural selves, is only obnoxious to Him.

He caused Adam to sin and all we ever do is because God causes us to do it. We are judged by what we do but our condemnation comes because Adam touched the tree.

I'm trying to make myself more popular to you.

You are a voluntary serf.

No, God is Sovereign and He decides the final destiny of all men. I was just like you but He had mercy, He had compassion on me. He loved me and gave Himself for me.

It ain't my fault. Why do you believe as you do? It ain't you.

A willing slave.
A groveling worm.

And? I am a Child of God, part of the chosen nation. I'm to inherit the universe alongside my Brother, my Keeper, Jesus Christ. What are you? Asks the worm.

You threw away the most precious quality a person can have: human dignity.

Humans have dignitity? You jest surely. I bow the knee to the creator of everything, not because I wanted but because He caused me to.

Humans have no diganity outside of God because God dictates morals not man. If there is no God there are no morals. Morals exist because God said it's wrong to cheat and steal and murder.

What basis have you for morality? None. The Nazi's were right. Survival of the fittest, whatever that means, is the order of life. Dignity outside of morality is a pile of nothing really is'nt it?

You are a mewling infant who refuses to grow up.

You don't know me. You don't know what I've lived through. You make you judgment on nothing but a drink or a smoke. It's too many puffs or gruffs.

And there is more than a hint of sadomasochism in your ridiculous and uncouth worldview.

It's not ridicuolous it's scriptural, it's not uncouth, it comes from God. But leaving that aside, tell me more about this sadomasochism, it sounds cool.

I know I am unkind to you on this forum, and perhaps now you will understand why; If you don't respect yourself, Jonny, no one else will either.

I don't think of others as being kind or unkind. I know where your mind is, it's in the Hands of God. I thank you for your sensitivity but I do not need it. I was once like you.

I don't respect myself. I'm a sinner saved by grace. But I know I sit on the Throne of God as an inheritor of all that's been created. It, the uinverse, has been created as my play-ground and I intend to play in it.

Paul said: 1 Cor 15:19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.

I think I respect your concern Rabbit. Thanks. But if you knew what our hope is, and if that hope is vain, what hope have you?

john.

[crackdpot]

Originally Posted by Bad Rabbit

Well, I got you to admit it, finally.

God is a bully and you are just fine with that.
You even seem to enjoy this predicament you imagine yourself to be in.

You know, JC, there is a phrase for that mentality.
Some call it a pathology and others, like me, just find it repulsive.

You are a voluntary serf.

A willing slave.
A groveling worm.
You threw away the most precious quality a person can have: human dignity.
You are a mewling infant who refuses to grow up.
And there is more than a hint of sadomasochism in your ridiculous and uncouth worldview.

I know I am unkind to you on this forum, and perhaps now you will understand why; If you don't respect yourself, Jonny, no one else will either.


Bad Rabbit

God gave us a perfect place to live, free from death, suffering and disease.
God also gave us a truly free will. Why, whenever something bad happens as a result of our disobedience, i.e., death, disease, suffering, does God get the blame? Would you rather God had not given freedom of choice? When Jesus (God) came and walked among us, it was He that healed the sick and raised the dead. We might get 70 or 80 years out of these worn out disease ridden wrecks we call bodies, but this is only temporary. Look to the sun that rises every morning and give thanks. Look to the moon that is perfectly placed so as to provide a balanced effect on our earths' tides and who knows what all else. Praise God for the life giving oxygen provided by the myriad of plant species that also rid our atmosphere of Carbon Dioxide, etc. Praise God for the fact that we can wake up in the morning and still be breathing, and realize that after we fell asleep, we forgot to remember to tell ourselves to keep breathing. God told us that if we disobeyed Him, we would surely die. Have you ever lied, Have you ever coveted? Have you ever copied a VHS tape that was copyrighted? Have you ever not loved your neighbor? If so, like the rest of us, you're unholy and worthy of death. How is that God's fault? Think about the pleasures you take for granted, say, ......existence for example. Where do you like to go to relax? The beach, the mountains, the river? How about giving God some thanks? He really loves you.

[crackdpot]

Originally Posted by jonnycool

My faith is this: God, before He created anything, chose to save some and send the rest to hell, for His glory.
He did not base His choice on what we do and He made sure that what we do, in our natural selves, is only obnoxious to Him.

He caused Adam to sin and all we ever do is because God causes us to do it. We are judged by what we do but our condemnation comes because Adam touched the tree.

I'm trying to make myself more popular to you.

john.

Yikes Dude! The reason He chose some is because He FOREKNEW them.
The scripture says He's not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to have eternal life.......He didn't create us to sin and then tell us not to. The bible says that the judgement of God is righteous.
He wants us all to come to Him, He just already knew who would and who wouldn't.